This week on Love in Leadership, we’re joined by two BIGGBY® COFFEE franchise owners with unique backgrounds. They chat with us about creating a workplace culture that encourages growth, the power of authenticity, and the sometimes-controversial word “family” when applied to work colleagues. They also explore times when they’ve learned from their employees, plus the power of envisioning a better future. It’s an inspiring week on Love in Leadership, one you won’t want to miss..
A Mission Beyond Coffee (featuring Jon Sell and Norma Pyscher)
Two franchisees discuss leadership, legacy, and leaning on employees for wisdom
GUEST BIO:
Jon Sell is a seasoned entrepreneur and a passionate advocate for positive workplace culture. With a background as an environmental scientist, Jon transitioned from the corporate world to become a successful franchise owner of BIGGBY® COFFEE.
Norma Pyscher is an inspirational business leader and co-owner of multiple Biggby Coffee franchises. With roots in nonprofit work, particularly in supporting at-risk youth, Norma has seamlessly integrated her passion for social impact into her entrepreneurial experience.
CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:
[51:53] - When Change Equals Growth
From previous careers to franchise ownership
Both Jon and Norma come from unique backgrounds before their time as franchisees. Jon was an environmental scientist, while Norma worked in the nonprofit sector. They shared a commitment to meaningful work, which is what attracted them to BIGGBY® COFFEE. Their stories underscore the courage required to pivot into entrepreneurship and fulfillment found in creating positive workplaces. As Jon says, “don’t wait to make a change.”
[32:09] - More than a Workplace
Putting employee growth and wellbeing first
A workplace is not a family. But why can’t it feel like one a bit more often? Jon and Norma emphasized the importance of supporting their employees' growth and well-being, treating their teams like family. They highlighted the significance of providing second chances and fostering an environment where everyone feels valued. This also means setting clear expectations and encouraging personal development.
[59:28] - The Vision of Leadership
Setting new standards for workplace culture
Jon and Norma discussed their commitment to improving workplace culture, not only in their franchises but through their example in the wider corporate landscape. By setting high standards for how employees are treated and engaged with, they hope to be positive influences for other workplaces. It’s not about the bottom line — it’s about being remembered for creating positive work environments and being willing to step up on behalf of employees.
[50:47] - Be Vulnerable First
The power of authenticity in leadership
Norma and Jon discussed the outdated idea that leaders are meant to always appear infallible and all-knowing. Instead, they advocate for a leadership style that embraces vulnerability, encouraging open communication and authenticity within their teams. As we’ve seen time and time again, this approach fosters a deeper connection between employees and management, creating a more cohesive and supportive team dynamic.
[46:47] - When Leaders Learn from Employees
Incorporating employee feedback for lasting success
The importance of listening to employees and incorporating their feedback into business decisions was a key theme, as it always is when it comes to BIGGBY® COFFEE.. Norma and Jon (as well as cohosts Mike and Laura) believe that great ideas can come from any level within the organization and that acknowledging and acting on employee suggestions leads to better business outcomes and a more engaged team. Better people and a better bottom line — what’s better than that?
[1:01:02] - More than Coffee
Envisioning a future in alignment with personal values Both Norma and Jon shared their aspirations for their personal and professional legacies, emphasizing the impact they hope to have beyond the success of their BIGGBY® COFFEE franchises. Norma spoke of her children, of wanting them to inherit a legacy of social and emotional intelligence, coupled with a business acumen that prioritizes people first. Jon expressed a similar thought, hoping his employees would measure future workplaces by the positive experiences they had working for him.
RESOURCES:
FOLLOW:
Follow Jon: LinkedIn
Follow Norma: LinkedIn
Follow Laura Eich:
Follow Mike McFall:
Follow BIGGBY® COFFEE & LifeLabTM:
ABOUT LOVE IN LEADERSHIP:
At the Life You Love LaboratoryTM and BIGGBY® COFFEE, we’re out to prove that financial success and healthy workplace culture aren’t two separate goals. BIGGBY® COFFEE's own cultural transformation is proof that not only is it possible to have a successful company where people aren’t miserable at work, but that the happier your people are, the more your business will grow. Each week, join host Laura Eich, Chief Purpose Officer at BIGGBY® COFFEE, and her co-host and BIGGBY® COFFEE co-CEO Mike McFall as they’re joined by guests from around the world to learn how they are fostering a culture of love and growth in the world’s most innovative and people-centric companies. Get inspired. Get real. Get ready to transform workplace culture in America with us. This is the Love in Leadership podcast.
Learn more at: loveinleadershippodcast.com
ABOUT THE HOSTS:
Mike McFall began his journey with BIGGBY® COFFEE as a minimum-wage barista at the original store in East Lansing in 1996. Over the span of 23 years, alongside business partner Bob Fish, he has helped create one of the great specialty coffee brands in America. Today Mike is co-CEO with Bob, and BIGGBY® COFFEE has over 250 stores open throughout the Midwest that sell tens of thousands of cups of coffee each day. But more importantly to Mike and BIGGBY® COFFEE, the company is a profoundly people-first organization.
Mike is also the author of Grind, a book which focuses on early stage businesses and how to establish positive cash flow.
Laura Eich is BIGGBY® COFFEE’s Chief People Officer, having worked in a variety of roles at BIGGBY® COFFEE for the last 11+ years. She helped launch BOOST, the department at BIGGBY® COFFEE which ultimately became LifeLabTM — BIGGBY® COFFEE’s inhouse culture cultivation team designed to help people be the best versions of themselves and help companies support them along the way. In her role, Laura helps people build lives that they love through the process of building profitable businesses and robust, growth-filled careers.
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As a nod to the past, Detroit Podcast Studios leverages modern versions of Motown’s processes to launch today’s most compelling podcasts. What Motown was to musical artists, Detroit Podcast Studios is to podcast artists today. With over 75 combined years of experience in content development, audio production, music scoring, storytelling, and digital marketing, Detroit Podcast Studios provides full-service development, training, and production capabilities to take podcasts from messy ideas to finely tuned hits.
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Learn more at: DetroitPodcastStudios.com
Laura Eich:
Welcome to the Love and Leadership Podcast. My name is Laura. This is Mike. Mike, how you doing?
Mike McFall:
I'm great, Laura. I'm great. Looking forward to having a conversation with you in the midst of a pregnancy brain. I'm loving it.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, we'll see how this goes. I've learned there's very strange things about pregnancy brain, like I won't be able to think of the next word I want to say, but I can remember strange names of things from seven years ago, which just happened yesterday. We were trying to remember one of those quirky Biggby names of something, and of course that came right into my mind. But thinking of the next word in a sentence, really challenging.
Mike McFall:
It's sort of like being a 52-year-old dude. I live the same way.
Laura Eich:
Oh, is it?
Mike McFall:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. The next word's not coming, but all of a sudden something pops my brain from decades ago. Right?
Laura Eich:
Okay. So now I know what it's like to be a 52-year-old man. That's great. So cool.
Mike McFall:
Oh, goodness gracious.
Laura Eich:
What is on your mind this week? What's happening in your brain?
Mike McFall:
I've been so deep right now, and I can't wait to get together with you later, but I've been so deep in my brain about Life Lab and what we're trying to do and trying to accomplish. And what are the ways that we can do it? And I want to go out 10 years, what should this thing look like in 10 years? And then start to create that today.
And I feel like we've just been so limited and constrained by our current situation, current resources, what we're trying to accomplish within Biggby Coffee that I'm not sure we're giving Life Lab. Its justice for what it could be in the world. And so I'm so excited, I can't stand it, to get into it with you and start to create what this thing's going to be like in 10 years.
Laura Eich:
We probably can't actually fully dive into that on here right now, can we?
Mike McFall:
No, and I don't want to, and it's probably not going to be what's in my brain right now. I'm pretty sure that it's going to be very, very different than what's in my brain right now. But anyway, it's such an exciting time and I feel like I'm in a startup, and that's exciting. I'm using and learning a lot of the lessons that I teach in my class that are somewhat gone for me in Biggby Coffee at 28 years old. So much of the startup advice and the stuff from Grind and so on, that's lost on Biggby in many ways for me, but in life-
Laura Eich:
Because we're so well established kind of thing?
Mike McFall:
Yeah.
Laura Eich:
So it's like flexing an old muscle?
Mike McFall:
Yeah, right.
Laura Eich:
That's cool.
Mike McFall:
Let's grind. Let's get a little dirty on this thing. Let's talk about who the customer is and how we're going to get them. It's a very different-
Laura Eich:
What the product is.
Mike McFall:
A very different thing.
Laura Eich:
We just had a Life Lab meeting. Sorry, you were not invited, yesterday, where we were talking about one year and three years. So the much shorter view of Life Lab and what it could be. And we got into that. We got close to being ready to fully launch our brains into the longer term. Because we started that conversation, which is, if we were thinking of this purely from what our customer, I'm using air quotes that people can't see, but what our customer needs from us and what product we're offering to the world. We just started dabbling in that.
And it's really cool because all six people around the virtual table have different ideas of what it could be. And then you get you and I in the room and it gets even weirder, more exciting when we're thinking about what it could be in 10 years. I just think that type of thinking is really invigorating.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. And by the way, F-you on not inviting me to the meeting.
Laura Eich:
Oh, stop.
Mike McFall:
How would you feel?
Laura Eich:
Well, it's in the nitty gritty of the right now, and we want to keep your brain on the future-
Mike McFall:
Sure doesn't sound like it.
Laura Eich:
Well, we got close to that and then we had to pull it back to, "Guys, what are we getting done in the next year?" And that part I think would've been not as invigorating, exciting. So you would've enjoyed approximately two and a half minutes of a two hour long meeting. That's why I didn't invite you.
Mike McFall:
Fair enough. So that's what's happening for me right now. What about you?
Laura Eich:
Oh, man. I mean, that's actually what I'm thinking about too, except I am thinking in the shorter timeframe, particularly getting ready for something like a maternity leave. I'm in the phase... I remember this from before sabbatical too, where I'm like, I just have to get all of my brain out of what might be talked about and considered and decided in the next three months so that I know I was there in some way. Then at some point I have to just let it go and have a baby, and learn how to do that.
Mike McFall:
I was with somebody who is a very progressive leader in the last couple of weeks, and we were talking about having access to you during your leave to have the baby. And I was like, "What do you mean?" Right? We're not going to have access to Laura when she's on maternity leave, right?
Laura Eich:
No.
Mike McFall:
And this progressive leader was like, "Seriously, you're not going to ask Laura to check in and you're not going to have Laura attend certain things and certain meetings? We don't have access to Laura for three months?" And I'm like, "No, none. Zero."
Laura Eich:
No.
Mike McFall:
And it was the strangest concept to have this person who I think is a very progressive leader say that. And it was one of those moments where I was like, my gosh, maybe we are quite a few years ahead. You would interrupt somebody's maternity leave to come into the office to have a specific meeting? That's not maternity leave.
Laura Eich:
It is. It's hard. There's some of me that... This is just like it was before sabbatical where I kind want to, I'm like, "Oh, invite me in for that thing." But my HR lead Jodi, she has confirmed that I am not allowed to do anything. And so I literally can't do any of it, so I'm not going to be available. It's true. And I think a lot of the world sort of... Oh, it's not even they pressure people to come out of a parent leave to come do things, but there's this very quiet threat.
And I think our employees that go on sabbatical experience this too, where it's like, you might miss out on something or you might miss out on an opportunity to grow, or you might miss out on a promotion. You might miss out on something if you actually go away. And that fear is there. It's real. But I'm also like, I am embracing what our HR team says and what a whole bunch of other birthing parents at our office have told me. And they're like, "Just go away. You've got enough to figure out and you'll be sleep-deprived and healing and all of that stuff." So I'm taking all their advice.
Mike McFall:
I think the bigger issue for people is that they are afraid that the organization's going to recognize that maybe they're not needed.
Laura Eich:
That too.
Mike McFall:
I think that's the big one on sabbatical or a longer leave. And when you come back, the opportunity is so beautiful, at that point, to have a clean slate and then be able to re-engineer your world however you want it in that moment. But anyway, the overall message was a very progressive leader was really quite surprised to hear that we weren't going to expect that you would be coming back into the office in some relaxed interval, but that you would be around and be available to answer questions and so on and so forth. So the other thing that's top of mind for me is I'm marrying Matt and Shannon Saturday.
Laura Eich:
Oh my gosh!
Mike McFall:
You didn't know that?
Laura Eich:
I didn't know that at all.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, I'm officiating their wedding. I'm doing it. I'm like, yep, I got to get up there and I got to-
Laura Eich:
Have you done that before?
Mike McFall:
No, no, no, no, no. And I'm really nervous about it. I still have nerves when I speak, anytime I speak. This one's got me really tweaked out though because you just don't want to screw up. This is a really bad one if you screw it up. So, can I run a couple of ideas past you?
Laura Eich:
Yes. But first, will you tell someone listening who Matt and Shannon are?
Mike McFall:
Oh, Matt and Shannon. Matt and Shannon are franchisees of ours. So it's a really cool story. Shannon worked for Matt at Biggby Coffee and that's how they met. And then she pursued Matt. Yeah, they're together.
Laura Eich:
It's a Biggby love story.
Mike McFall:
It is a beautiful Biggby love story, and they're beautiful people and highly intelligent. Amazing. And I'm honored. I mean, it's a real honor to get asked, especially in an environment, this corporate environment, and then asking someone within the corporate environment to marry you. I think it's a nice endorsement of our culture in a way.
Laura Eich:
What do you want to run past me? Yeah.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. So before the bride and groom come down the aisle, I have a moment to address the group. And the moment is like, "Turn your cell phones off, try to be present." That kind of thing. Right? So I was thinking about doing two things. One, I was going to say, because I always... Not that I've done church a lot in my life, but I've always loved the moment in church when you greet your neighbors and you shake hands and you say, "Hi, good morning." Right? So I was going to do that.
Laura Eich:
Oh, cute. I like it.
Mike McFall:
Just, "Let's introduce ourselves to our neighbor sitting..." I've never seen that done in a wedding.
Laura Eich:
No.
Mike McFall:
And then the other thing is I was going to say, "I want you to take the most beautiful picture of Matt and Shannon in your brain right now, and we're going to take 30 seconds to a minute and we're just going to focus on that image." To bring this sort of loving energy into the room for Matt and Shannon.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, I love that.
Mike McFall:
Do you like it?
Laura Eich:
Yeah.
Mike McFall:
You do?
Laura Eich:
I'd go for 30 seconds for the person in the room who is uncomfortable with silence for that long. But I think that's beautiful.
Mike McFall:
Do think I'm going to get some giggles? You think I'll get some giggles?
Laura Eich:
I don't know. I don't know their crowd well enough to know.
Mike McFall:
I think you're right, 30 seconds it is.
Laura Eich:
Yeah. You're going to do great though. That's super exciting.
Mike McFall:
I get obsessive over this. I need it to go perfect or I'm going to be so mad at myself.
Laura Eich:
As long as they end up married at the end of it, it will be perfect.
Mike McFall:
Okay. All right. Well that's the standard.
Laura Eich:
That's the standard.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. All right.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, that's very cool. Speaking of a couple of franchise owners, I think we're ready to get into a conversation with our franchise owners that happen to be our guests today. So we've got Jon Sell and Norma Pyscher, both franchise owners at Biggby Coffee, both own a couple of stores, both really purpose-driven, bringing love deep into leadership practices kind of people. And I'm just really excited to talk to them today.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. Me too. I can't wait. I've been excited for this one since I saw it on the calendar many moons ago.
Laura Eich:
Well, perfect. They're going to do a better job of introducing themselves and their stories, so let's jump right into it. All right, my friends, we're going to jump right in. Everybody feeling good?
Jon Sell:
Yep.
Laura Eich:
You excited to talk? Yeah. Good times. Okay, let's start with my dear friend Norma. Norma, I'm going to have you just tell us real quick. I could introduce you, but I think you'll do a better job. Who are you, where are you from and what is it that you do?
Norma Pyscher:
I am Norma Pyscher. I am from Midland, Michigan, and I help people build a life they love through Biggby Coffee.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, yeah, you do. How do you do that through Biggby Coffee? What's your role?
Norma Pyscher:
I own the two stores here in Midland.
Laura Eich:
Very cool. Jon, what about you? Who are you, where are you from? What is it that you do?
Jon Sell:
I'm from originally from Rockford, Ohio. I have two stores, soon to be three. I have one in St. Mary's, Ohio, one in Salina, Ohio, and one being built in Van Wert, Ohio all within about a 30 mile radius of each other.
Laura Eich:
And where are we talking in Ohio? I'm someone from Michigan, so I don't know it very well.
Jon Sell:
West central Ohio, almost on the Indiana border.
Laura Eich:
Right on. And Norma, where's Midland in Michigan?
Norma Pyscher:
Do you want me to use my hand?
Laura Eich:
We're on a podcast. You might have to use your words.
Norma Pyscher:
Dang. It's Central Michigan, so right in between Saginaw and Mount Pleasant area.
Laura Eich:
Awesome. So what I'm curious from both of you is how you ended up here? This isn't an overtly Biggby franchise ownership podcast, that kind of thing, but you both happen to be Biggby franchise owners. I'm wondering in the highlight mode, highlight reel of your life, how did you end up being a franchise owner for Biggby Coffee? And Jon, we'll go to you first this time.
Jon Sell:
The highlight reel is I spent 20 years as working for a engineering firm as an environmental scientist. Most of that time I spent down in Atlanta, Georgia. Fast forward 20 years, started to feel really burnt out in that career, just feeling like I wasn't making a difference anymore in that career. And through my folks back home here in Ohio when I was down in Georgia, introduced me at that time. It was Beaner's 15, 20 years ago is when they originally introduced me to it.
Came up to Discovery Day 20 years ago. Really liked what they had to say. I remember Mike and Bob. Mike had a few less gray hairs, just like myself back then 20 years ago, and really liked what they had to say. But I liked my job. I wasn't ready to move home to the cold Midwest winters. And so I kind of put that on the back burner, always like maybe one I'll come back to that. Fast forward 20 years, I came back to it, and went to Discovery Day again. Really liked what they were saying, and there's more to the story, but I made the decision that it was the right time, and that's how I got to be where I am now.
Mike McFall:
I didn't know the two Discovery Days part, I wasn't aware of that. So how long in between the Discovery Days was it?
Jon Sell:
It was back when the first time I went you were still Beaner's, and it was about 15 years in between. Well, Saint Mary's was my first store seven years ago. It was about 15 years in between the time that I originally checked it out-
Mike McFall:
Oh, I didn't know that.
Jon Sell:
Until the second time.
Mike McFall:
Cool. Thank you. That's amazing. I didn't know that.
Laura Eich:
I wonder how much Discovery Day changed or didn't change between 15 years? It's pretty dramatic, I'm guessing. Jon, you mentioned you didn't feel like you were making a difference in your environmental scientist work. Was that the original intent? I'm picturing a scientist in a lab, you can correct me on what actually you did, but what was your hope from that career?
Jon Sell:
I am a natural biologist, like an ecologist. I did endangered species surveys, wetland and stream surveys, wetland delineations, created stream mitigation banks, wetland mitigate, built wetlands, built streams, built endangered species habitat, did permitting. Because every project has an environmental process that goes through particularly roads and highways is what my firm did is built and designed roads and highways.
So anytime they do an impact there to a wetland stream, endangered species habitat, you have to mitigate for that. And through my career, I just felt like I moved up the corporate ladder and I wasn't out doing what I wanted to do anymore. I was more dealing with corporate red tape, dealing with clients, less of feeling like I was making a difference. Outside was where my intent was, and just dealing more with the client side of things. And just feeling like where things were headed in that industry just didn't feel like I was doing what I originally wanted to do anymore.
Laura Eich:
What was it about either the Discovery Day or maybe the conversations you had after that Discovery Day that made you think, I might be able to make the difference that I want to make at Biggby or through Biggby ownership?
Jon Sell:
Well, I always kind of really felt like I wanted to own my own business. And I originally wanted to own a gym, I thought. I'm glad I didn't go that route, but just being able to feel like you had some leeway in your decision making in terms of you weren't saddled with this is how you run your business and you can't diverge at all from what things are being done within your business. You have that flexibility to make a workplace the way you want it, and it's not like you have to do it this way and if you don't, then you're going to get kicked out of the system, I guess.
Laura Eich:
All right. I'm going to pause on Jon for a second. We're going to go to Norma. Norma, same sort of question. What's the highlight reel, where you started, how you ended up as a Biggby franchise owner?
Norma Pyscher:
Yeah, I'm going to give you a little bit of both Corey, my husband and my story. So we actually both grew up really poor. I had a really traumatic upbringing. And I decided when I was about 13 years old, one of my family members had abused me. And I just was crying out for, not myself, for my safety and whatnot, but for them to feel joy and love again. Because at the time before everything started to unravel with me and him, he was like a best friend to me. I really looked up to him. And I just wanted him to feel that love and joy again.
And so I had decided that I'm either going to lose my life, or I'm going to use it to help people find the joy and feel the love. And so I just used that as a catalyst to say, this is what my life is going to be surrounded by. Corey had a very similar moment in his life and when we met, we met volunteering for at-risk youth. We took our first date to a Biggby coffee in Kalamazoo, and he was working in a corporate job. I was working for a non-profit.
I had two kids and was going to be a stay-at-home mom, but he is a serial entrepreneur and kept popping out these businesses like I was popping out babies. And he was like, "I need you on my side. I need you to quit the nonprofit and really go to work with me on this." And I was like, "Okay, let's do it. Let's roll." And COVID hit, and it was a huge blessing to us because he went from working 70, 80 hours a week and traveling three months out of the year, to being home with us. And we said, "This is what we need for our family. So let's get into something that works for the both of us, gives us both more time at home."
He had already started another company, but we were looking at a franchise and my mom and I had a dream of having a coffee shop together. We loved Biggby. So we went to Discovery Night, met Bob and Mike and a whole lot of other people from the home office. And the one thing that was the hook and sinker for me was hearing the purpose and the vision. And I said, "This is what is going to align us. I don't care about any other systems that they have in place. We'll make whatever else work, but I'm here for the people." We've always been stakeholder capitalists before that term ever came to our understanding. So that's where we're at.
Laura Eich:
That's very cool. So one reason we wanted to have both of you on this one together is because of your purpose mindedness. We know a little bit about both of your stories and how you both intended to have impact through your business ownership and that sort of thing. I have a question, but I want to jump back. I know Mike wanted to jump into some of the story things. Mike did you want to ask your question first?
Mike McFall:
No, we can move on, because I don't want to spend too much time in the story. I want to talk more about the robustness of what's happening right now, and the things that are occurring right now that are just so powerful. So let's spend our time there, and maybe we can go back and do some of the story stuff if we have time.
Laura Eich:
Sounds good. So you both entered worlds very, very differently than where you are now. Jon, you are a scientist. Norma, you were working for a nonprofit, happened to marry a serial entrepreneur. Well done. That's a complicated life choice, but really well done. You guys are managing it well. You had very different views at some point of your life, and now you are both business owners of Biggby locations. You both have multiple Biggby locations. I'm wondering particularly, what of your time spent in those former worlds, in nonprofit land, in scientist land, even just experiences with other bosses, other leaders. What are some of the things that have shaped how you choose to run your business? And Norma, I'll pop to you first for this one.
Norma Pyscher:
So working in a nonprofit, I was working with at-risk youth, and we were trying to bring values of well-being into their lives and help them, similar to some of the Life Lab curriculum. Just helping them with those well-being areas and making sure that they're going to be okay, they're going to have more successful lives outside of middle school and high school. And getting them to where they want to go, following their dreams and whatnot.
But what was really interesting to me was working at a nonprofit that cared about those things for the people that we served, but didn't necessarily support them within the organization. I was required to work about 40 hours a week. If we did a camp, I was working 80 to 100 that week. I think you have similar experiences, Laura.
Laura Eich:
I do.
Norma Pyscher:
It's just a lot. But I was paid for 24 to 28 hours a week. That was it. It was an expectation that you would volunteer the rest of your time, because you cared so much about the purpose and the mission. And that's unsustainable for an organization with your employees. But beyond that, there were so many other things that they did that denied you the opportunity for well-being in your own life.
And it was a complete difference from my experiences in a workplace that is for-profit. They want to take care of you like we do our employees, so that they can give more to the people that we serve. Whereas here, it was almost like they wanted us to be one of the people that needed the services that our partners offered. It was incredible to me.
Mike McFall:
That's astonishing.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, that's wild. So you focus on that with your staff, as like we want to take care of you as the whole person. We want-
Norma Pyscher:
The whole person. Yes, the whole person is really important.
Mike McFall:
Norma, we need to spend some time on some future visioning around Life Lab with you specifically, if you don't mind?
Norma Pyscher:
We'd love to. You already know, midnight emails hit me up.
Mike McFall:
I do. And I love them.
Laura Eich:
I do too. Jon, what about you? Something from past life that's really influenced a big way of how you want to run your business, how you want to be a business owner?
Jon Sell:
There's many things, but take away from my previous job, the corporate environment is a very hollow place to work. There's really not a whole lot of investment in a person as who you are in the corporate America, at least from my experience. It's more about what kind of production can we get out of you? With little to no thought from who your boss might be that you may meet once or twice in the corporate world, or if you do happen to speak with them regularly, there's really not a whole lot care about what's going on in your life.
I think I've told you before, my decision that finally broke the camel's back was I was only home for three days the entire year. Three days. And I'm like, okay, something's got to change. And so taking the feeling of wanting to work myself in a place that people cared about what was going on in your life, and it wasn't just you showed up and it was, how much can I get out of you? And I don't really care what's going on in your life.
Because to me, it's, I think more important, here as entrepreneurs, we take a risk. We're taking a risk with our money, we're taking a risk with our life. And I think it's almost more important or just as important to take that big of risk on employees that you have. And I can explain more about that, but I think you get more out of taking risk with your employees than you do with taking a risk with your dollar.
Laura Eich:
Yeah. Will you say more about that? Because I love that.
Jon Sell:
If you are taking a risk on your employee, there are things that, I've made decisions that I knew wasn't probably the best for the store, but I felt was the best decision for an employee. Say, maybe they haven't been showing up for work or they just haven't been performing well at work, and just deciding that, okay, I'm going to give them another chance or try to dig into what is their issue? Why aren't they doing what they're supposed to? Versus saying, okay, this is what this is causing these problems in the store, but I feel like this person needs this chance, because maybe they've never been given that chance.
And then sometimes it works out for me and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you feel like you're reaching out and doing all you can, but you just end up pulling back a bloody stump and it didn't work out. But I think in general, if your other employees are seeing how you genuinely are trying to make someone else's life, help them out. And then they see that, and it's kind of contagious I think. So that's the short story.
Mike McFall:
And when it works, it works like a factor of five and 10, right?
Jon Sell:
Yes.
Mike McFall:
It's exponential, the difference because of the relationship you build with that person, the loyalty you're demonstrating for each other. And then that person just becomes a beautiful superhero in your world based on that.
Jon Sell:
Right.
Mike McFall:
And so it's not like the investment is a one-fold return. I mean we can't really quantify it, but it's significant. Right?
Jon Sell:
Right. And to that point, it's like sometimes when it doesn't work out, and for whatever reason you have to end up parting ways, I just hope that at some point in time they'll get it down the road and they'll be like, "Oh, that's what they were trying to do." And change their outlook on things, or realize that there are people out there that are trying to help you and are trying to promote your growth. You're achieving a better life than just expecting you to show up to work.
Mike McFall:
Have either of you gotten a call years later from somebody who you didn't work out with, and then they call you and they're almost apologetic and saying, "I'm sorry, I now recognize how much effort and energy you were putting in for me and I'm really sorry."
Norma Pyscher:
I get it now.
Mike McFall:
So have either of you gotten a call like that? I've gotten multiple of those calls over the years. Have you guys gotten any of those?
Norma Pyscher:
I've gotten many, and I think it still occurs almost every couple of months for us where somebody says, "I am so sorry, can I come back?" Or, "I'm so sorry." Or, "Thank you." We just had one last week. I walked in the door to my store, my hands are full because I'm carrying catering stuff. And I hear my name called out and I turn around and it's someone who we had to let go two or three months prior, but they were happy to see me.
We had taken a couple long walks together, shared some tears, and we had done everything that we could to support them with us, but the last straw is the last straw. And sometimes you just have to say you can't grow. That's one of our rules is grow or go, and if you're not going to grow with us, you're going to have to go.
And they went, and they came back and they're sitting in my lobby having a bagel and a drink. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, what are you doing here?" I sit down with them and I say, "How are you? Are you okay?" And they're going, "I am so good. I am really, really good." Just bright smiles, something that you wouldn't normally have seen from them. They had been in and out of the hospital for mental health issues, and they're sitting there beaming. And I'm like, "You have a job, you have a place to stay?" It's just incredible, some of the stories that we get to experience when they come back and they're like, "Yeah, that really helped. It was impactful." Sometimes you have to say no, it's time to go, so you can keep growing. It's really cool.
Jon Sell:
Yeah, almost just about every single employee that I've had has asked to come back, and either sometimes at that point in time we might not need an employee, because we're staffed, but if we need them, I let them come back. And sometimes it is a complete 180 where they've turned around and do great. And then sometimes they come back and it's the same thing over again.
And I don't necessarily get calls, because I live in such small communities that I see them from time to time. But like I said, almost every single employee that has left has asked to come back. And sometimes it works out great and sometimes it was like, we're not quite there yet with what we're trying to work out.
Mike McFall:
I think, I mean that's extraordinary for both of you. Norma, you're saying every couple of months, or it happens regularly. And Jon, you're saying pretty much every employee that leaves wants... That to me demonstrates a really loving and powerful culture. They may not appreciate it right now, but they leave it and then when they don't have it anymore, they're pining for it. They want it back in their life. So, amazing stuff you two, incredibly commendable.
Laura Eich:
And I think one of the things we talk about with our purpose and our vision of improving workplace culture in America is the fact that we think our franchise owners, if they set a higher expectation for what work should be... So what work shouldn't be is everything, Jon you described earlier about, it's just red tape and bureaucracy and nobody cares about you and everything like that. I think that is the existing expectation in a lot of the world. But something powerful that you guys are doing, even if your employees do leave and leave permanently, is that you're setting a different expectation with them, often at a really young age.
A lot of our staff is on the younger end, usually in high teens or twenties and that kind of thing. So I just think you're busy changing the world by running really beautiful businesses. So thank you for doing that, and I want to know a little bit more of how you do that. So Norma, you said grow or go, which I'm curious, A, if you can talk more about that? And what is that? Is it like a workplace value belief? Is that something you say to your staff? Do they know that? Let's talk more about that. That was interesting.
Norma Pyscher:
Yeah, so we have a few expectations that we have here if you come to work with us. And we have A, B, C, grow, which is A, always celebrate mistakes, B break before you break down, C, call out the crap, and then grow. Grow or go. So those are the expectations that I have for all of my staff. If you get hired on, those are the four things I expect out of you day in and day out. And if you can't keep growing, you have to go.
I mean Mike talks about it, we have to be a deliberately developmental organization. We have to relentlessly pursue growth in humans, or we're not going to be better. We're not going to keep up with what's happening in our world. So to me, if you're coming to work here, you're going to be part of this super organism that we're all trying to create and we're going to work hard pursuing the growth individually and personally, but also professionally. And if somebody calls you out on your crap, including myself, and you can't grow in it, you have to go. That's just, that's it.
Mike McFall:
Norma, if my heart were a harp, the strings are just playing. So can you dive into a couple of examples of growth? What does that look like for a 19 or 20-year-old barista? And what kinds of things are they doing to grow?
Norma Pyscher:
There's so many. First of all, a lot of the people that are working here don't have experience working in a culture where they have these expectations. So one of the things that I'm actually trying to develop in them is their ability for this radical candor, and to say, "Hey, this isn't working for me." So our major thing is conflict resolution, and not just resolving it but bringing it up. That's where we say, always celebrate your mistakes, call it out, make it known. Work on finding the mistakes within yourself and your actions, but also within your teammates, within the system that we have. And then practice calling that out, making everyone else aware of it in a way that everyone can say, "Okay, let me take a step back and look at it."
It's not in a way to say, "Hey, you suck at this." Or make it so that people get defensive or argue, but as just, we're all here with the same thing in mind, which is to grow as people. And we work on you personally, between me and my staff, but then professionally we all have to work hand-in-hand together. So I don't care who you are. If you're a brand new barista and it's your second day here, you can call me out if you notice that I'm doing something that doesn't work for the system that we have going on, or if I'm breaking a rule or if I make you uncomfortable, call me out. Help me to understand how it affects everything that's happening here so that I can grow and not make that mistake again, but also do better with other similar experiences.
Laura Eich:
That's so good.
Mike McFall:
That's good. Yeah, love it.
Laura Eich:
Jon, do you have any either staff expectations, value expectations, behaviors, misbehaviors that are clearly articulated like that for your store locations?
Jon Sell:
Mine isn't as organized as what Norma's is, but I'm a lot of fly by the seat of my pants type of person. But my biggest thing is, I try to tell my managers and all my employees, particularly when we get new people coming in, because my employees I have stay for years with me. Some of them have been there for seven years with me. But anyway, my biggest thing is I feel like every self-respecting person wants to do good at their job. And if they're not, there's a reason that's either something that we have failed in training in articulating to them or our expectations, or they didn't understand it, or this is their first job and they really don't know.
To Norma, what Norma is saying, expectations. Some of them, it's their first job and they don't know what is expected of them because they've either never had a job before or they haven't been raised with certain expectations on them. And so to me it's like, okay, we need to find out if somebody's doing something that they're not supposed to or they're not doing it right or it seems like it's... What is it? Did we fail, or is it something that just, did we not come across to them that in a way that they connect with and they understand it?
The Life Lab talks about the whole different methods of teaching and people learning things. I'm like, we've been doing that, hasn't necessarily defined it as find out what that was. It's more of like, okay, what is the issue? Is it with us? Do we need to let them have their hands on things more? Where is the problem coming from? And understanding also, my biggest thing is trying to get to know the individual as well as you can so that you can understand who they are and what is going on in their life.
And you don't have to dig in real deep to their personal lives. And some people share more, but the more you know about somebody, the easier it is to be understanding of their situation. And there's one employee that I have, she is great, but she can create a lot of issues by, she has a tendency to cause drama. I'll put it lightly. And then it causes a lot of an unhealthy environment, and I have to call her out on it. And it's like she has a tendency to target people. And you have to set her down and you're like, "I know what's going on, and you're going to face the people that you are causing issues with. We're all going to sit down and we're going to talk about this."
And then it'll be better for a while. And she's one of the ones I'm talking about, it's not always the greatest decision, but when she is on and she is doing good, the environment in the store is awesome. But, then she'll relapse and I'm like, she knows I'm going to call her out on it, but it's one of those things that's like, it's a repetitive thing that I just have to keep working on it. I'm not going to give up on her on this.
Mike McFall:
One of the things that you said in there that I want to cue up, that I've got a catchphrase that I've been repeating. If your employee isn't succeeding, it's not their fault. It's your job as the leader to make sure that they have the opportunity to succeed. And I heard that in both of what you were saying there, and to me that's leadership, right? That's like the definition of leadership. If you aren't up for that task, you shouldn't become a leader.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, I was going to highlight that both of the things you guys were just talking through are really important leadership skills. So Jon, one of the things you were just talking about is, some people are going to call it meeting people where they're at. They're going to call it signal antenna. Making sure your antenna is matching the signal that's being put out and being able to handle things that way.
Norma, setting clear expectations, also being participatory in those expectations. These are all major leadership skills, and I love that you highlighted them. I actually wanted to ask you guys, knowing a little bit about your stories now and where you came from, I want to talk about what you see as things you wish would die in the traditional leadership landscape, basically? What do we wish we could overcome if we just waved a magic wand, leadership expectations that are out there that just need to be put to rest, because the world has moved on from them. Norma, I saw you laugh, so I'm going to go to you first.
Norma Pyscher:
I feel like there's so many that it's hard to choose one thing that you hate about traditional business, especially coming from a nonprofit standpoint, but honestly the thing that probably drives me the most crazy is the idea that the boss is always right. I can't walk into a room and be like, I'm the smartest person in the room here. Because at the end of the day, I'm not the one who's facing all the issues 24/7 firsthand.
I've got 30 employees who are in it day in and day out. I need to know their expertise, I need to know their ideas. And even when I think I've got it figured out, sometimes it's that fresh perspective that really moves you forward. And if I don't rely on the strengths of the people around me, then I'm just silly old me with only one brain to think of ideas. The volume of creativity within our organization is so great in comparison to what one person could achieve.
Laura Eich:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike McFall:
That's beautiful.
Laura Eich:
That was beautiful.
Jon Sell:
Yeah, I agree with you. 100%. And also, not only getting rid of that persona that the boss is always right, but opening up so that boss or that leader is... The things that I always try to tell to my managers is, be open to what the people that are under you are saying. You're only as good as the leaders that are people that are around you. And open up to them and tell them, ask, "What's your advice on this?" And then give them credit for something, say there's a change in policy or things need to be done differently, give them credit for it and don't take the credit for it.
Just because you are giving them credit doesn't mean that your job is in jeopardy or they're a better manager. You just need to give them credit for it, because you don't get respect from, if somebody comes to you with an idea and you try to make it your own, then nobody's ever going to come to you because you don't get credit where credit's due. And I try to tell myself that and my managers that. I was like, "Just because somebody came up with an idea doesn't mean that you are not a good leader." It makes you a better leader, and makes you a better leader that you're giving them credit.
Mike McFall:
Laura, what's yours?
Laura Eich:
Oh, I was all ready to take this on. Hold on. Do you have one right away? Do you have one?
Mike McFall:
Yeah, I can go. I can go, and then give you... So mine is this concept that you need to get the highest amount of production for the least amount of money, and then it's this transaction. And it's a transaction that is like you're buying a machine or buying a car. You go out and buy a car and I guess you try to buy the car as cheaply as you possibly can. Well, even that rubs me the wrong way. So this concept of doing everything as cheaply as you can, especially when it comes to people, that's horrible and heresy, and we need to get rid of that concept.
Laura Eich:
Yeah. Okay. I got one. It's kind of connected to Jon. I was nodding aggressively with what Jon was talking about, but the idea that leaders can't show vulnerability is actually my-
Mike McFall:
Laura said, or Norma said it too. Same thing. Yeah, 100%. Love it.
Laura Eich:
You're a real person. Just because you're in a leadership position, formal or informal does not mean you don't have bad days, that you shouldn't share that you're struggling with something, that you need to ask for help. It just limits the possibilities when we put that kind of limitation on ourselves. I'm curious, if someone was in a position that you both found yourself in some years ago, where you are sitting there frustrated, either where life is out of balance, or you're not getting what you need out of your job, you're not feeling fulfilled in your job. And you were to give someone a piece of advice in that moment in time, what would that advice be? And Jon, I'm going to go to you first for that one.
Jon Sell:
If you're feeling like something is out of place and you're not satisfied, don't wait to make a change. Don't be afraid to make that, and try to achieve something that you know that's out there and that you want. It's like it's cliche, but you don't have all the time in the world. Time runs out. My grandpa used to say, "Time waits for no one. It passes you by the stars in the sky." And don't wait.
Laura Eich:
Grandpa was a poet. That was beautiful. Norma, what about you? What would you say?
Norma Pyscher:
Well, I would do what Alicia Beck does to me every time she happens to call me, when I need her to call me, it's just totally randomly. She just happens to have that instinct of like, oh crap, Norma needs me. And she picks up the phone and she dials my number and she goes, "What's going on?" And she asks me if everything went as planned, not as planned, if everything went in a way that was just absolutely beautiful without any of these things that are holding you back, what would be the vision or the dream of what your life looks like? What would be that picture that you have in your head? What are the details of what's happening in your life if everything went well? And that's what I would say.
Mike McFall:
Oh, my gosh. And then live in that space, right?
Norma Pyscher:
Yeah.
Mike McFall:
Live in that energy. Oh my God, it's beautiful.
Norma Pyscher:
Make your steps toward that. Forget about what ifs scenarios, and just keep moving toward the dream and the vision and take the hits as they come. Because no matter what choices in life that you make, the hits are going to come. But you have to have that grit and that mindset of, I'm here for it. I'm going to focus on my vision and my dream, and I'm going to reach it no matter what comes at me. You just have to have that mindset.
Mike McFall:
I had a conversation... Norma this is so beautiful. I had a conversation with a student yesterday who came up to me, I teach a class in entrepreneurship, and he came up to me after class and he said, "How do I deal with this? How do I deal with the risk of doing my own thing?" And he is a fourth year chemist, just about to finish his degree. I looked at him and I said, "Oh my gosh, bet on yourself. Look at you, right? You're such a powerful person. You're getting a chemistry degree from the University of Michigan."
And he's worried about the risk of failing as an entrepreneur. And I'm like, "Oh, no, no, you are so powerful. You are so beautiful. Bet on yourself." And he teared up, and you know what his response was? "No one's ever said that to me. No one has ever said that to me." He's in his fourth year, he's going to become a chemist. He's obviously brilliant. He's a beautiful kid. And it's like, I can't believe that, here he is. No one's ever said that to him. How is that possible?
Norma Pyscher:
It's unbelievable. And to me, my immediate thought in my head is, what are the risks you're taking by not betting on yourself? By not going out and going out on your own to accomplish your dreams? That's a risk in itself.
Jon Sell:
Yeah. The thing that I always tell myself, it's like it's easier to regret what you do than what you don't do. And also, think of what Benjamin Franklin said. It's like, "Worrying is paying for a debt that you don't owe." And I'm a big reader and I've read a lot. That man had a lot of good quotes, and that one was always stuck out to me as like, why am I worrying about something that could happen, and it never happens? And I spent all that time worrying about it, and then yet it never happened.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, I have to tell myself that one, because I tend to be a worrier and a planner, and sometimes those go together. Is that if I'm worried about something, if I'm anxious about something, I'm just having to live it more than once. If it's going to happen and it's going to suck, that's a bummer. But at least I could keep it so I only have to live it one time. And if I spend all this time worrying and imagining worst case scenarios, I'm having to live it multiple times, and it may never actually even happen. So yeah, full support. Love that. Since you mentioned books, Jon, because I feel like we very often enter the realm of books, and Norma has secretly referred to several books very quietly through this conversation.
Norma Pyscher:
I don't know, five or six.
Laura Eich:
Do you both have a couple of favorite book recommendations, either about entrepreneurship, business ownership, leadership, or even, just pick a favorite book for us too, if it's not in one of those genres. Norma, hit us with a couple of your faves.
Norma Pyscher:
Okay. Listen Like You Mean It, by Ximena Vengoechea. And the second one is Unreasonable Hospitality. Have you read it?
Laura Eich:
I haven't, but I've been told I should.
Norma Pyscher:
By Will Guidara. Oh, it's beautiful.
Mike McFall:
Who wrote it?
Norma Pyscher:
Will Guidara. He studied under Danny Meyer.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. Setting the Table is one of my favorite books by Danny Meyer. Yeah. It sounded like Danny Meyer when you said the title. I haven't read it, but I will.
Norma Pyscher:
Very similar.
Laura Eich:
All right, one more question. Well, I'm prepared to ask one more question. Before I do that, do any of you have a question for each other?
Mike McFall:
I do. Sorry. And I want you guys to ask questions too. I can't let you guys go without this question. Tell me your legacy? What do you want your legacy to be?
Jon Sell:
I don't know about... Here's my feeling, is that people remember you for who you are and who you were, not for necessarily how much money you made, how many businesses you opened. At the end of the day, I tell my employees, "This isn't always a place that you're going to spend your career." And I understand that. But what I want it to be is like, "Man, that was one of the funnest jobs I ever had working for you and working at Biggby, it was fun. It felt like family. And after I left there, I used your, that atmosphere, that culture as a measuring stick for every other place that I went."
Mike McFall:
There you go.
Jon Sell:
I don't really care if, I don't have to... I'm not one that cares whether or not my name is in a brick building somewhere. I care about if people remember you made a difference when I came to that job and I always look back and that's how I measured what a good place to work was, was working at your place. And that's what I care about is, people remember me that I created a good working environment and I tried to do what I could for them, and was willing to step up. And a lot of people say, "Hey, whatever you need, I'm there." And they fail at stepping up when they're put to the task. And I want to be remembered for, he did what he said and he was always there when I asked for help. That's all I care about.
Laura Eich:
That's a powerful legacy. That's beautiful. Norma, what about you?
Norma Pyscher:
Can I say ditto? Well, Mike, do you want my personal legacy or my Biggby legacy?
Mike McFall:
No, your personal legacy.
Norma Pyscher:
I want my personal.
Mike McFall:
Oh, sure. I just presume that Biggby is going to be part of your personal legacy.
Norma Pyscher:
Well, honestly, my personal legacy is really focused on motherhood. I'm a homeschooling mom, and I'm hopeful that my legacy is that my children have social and emotional learning skills, along with the business skills to go into the next segment of business with a mindset that is people first, and that that continues on for generations to come. But my Biggby legacy would be that our stores did everything in their power to fulfill the vision of Biggby coffee, to change workplace culture in America and also do their part in helping Biggby Coffee to become a billion dollar business, because they do go hand in hand.
And I want every person who stepped foot into my stores to understand that they're not supporting just coffee. But that, like one of my managers says, her name is Chris. She goes, "It takes a village to make a coffee." And it's so true. And so what I would want from my legacy is that the people involved, every stakeholder understands how valuable each one of them is, and how they change the world one cup of coffee at a time.
Laura Eich:
Mic drop. Those were both really beautiful, and very similar to the question I was going to ask, Mike. So we're going to call that a wrap on the day. That was perfect. I just want to thank you two again, so much for coming on here, giving us your time and sharing your hearts and your minds. You're doing really beautiful things in your stores, and I love that you're doing them slightly differently, but it's all still beautiful and purposey goodness. So really appreciative of you for coming on today.
Mike McFall:
Thank you. Yeah, both of you, I could sit here and do this, honestly, it feels like we just got started and we've been doing it for an hour and 10 minutes. I love what you're up to. I love you. I love you for what you're doing. Thank you so much.
Norma Pyscher:
Thank you guys.
Jon Sell:
Thank you.
Mike McFall:
I mean, holy smokes. What a conversation! Honestly, it sounds so weird to say it, but I could keep going and going and going with them. I just wanted to know more about their approach and their philosophy. It was just so beautiful. I think that for me, one of the things that stood out that I think is not customary in the world, is this concept of, that if it's not working for somebody and they opt to leave, inviting them back in the future. Or, if somebody screws up really badly at a given moment in time, you heard Jon say it, giving them a second chance.
And it's not just turn and burn, it's like, no, we can work with somebody and we can give them a second chance. And his bloody stump thing, I laughed out loud. He's like, sometimes you end up, you bring back a bloody stump. I thought that was hilarious, but he's willing to make a sacrifice to help somebody and support somebody in a moment in time. And he might bring back a bloody stump, but that's okay with him because when it works, it's so beautiful. And so I love that concept of second chances.
Laura Eich:
I did too. He even said, taking a risk on a person is so much more impactful than taking a risk with your money. Basically, this was a bigger deal, to take a risk on these individual people working for his stores. I love that so much. The big thing that was sticking out to me, especially at the end here was, if things aren't what they should be in your life, if you're not getting what you need from your life, spend some time picturing your future. Spend some time picturing the best version of your future, and then take that first step and get after it. Go find that future. That left me with goosebumps when we were talking about that.
Mike McFall:
Me too. Living into that space, create that and then live into that. That is just so, so powerful. I loved it. And one last thing from me is this idea that you can improve workplace culture by setting the example of what a healthy relationship between an employer and an employee can be. And so that when somebody leaves, that they go into their next role, their next job with a new employer, having the expectation that that's what it should be like. And if it's not, that that's not healthy. And it's raising the bar around what an employer's responsibilities are with an employee. And to me, when that came out, I was just like, absolutely. This is such a perfect way to change workplace culture. It's not just about our culture today in our businesses. It's 10 years down the road, 20 years down the road. So I love that.
Laura Eich:
I do too. I think that's legitimately how the workplace in America will change over time. It will be the next generation demanding better, constantly, and being shown better. And then they have the proof to help change it in their next workplace and everything like that. For our listeners, if you like what you heard today, you can of course find more episodes of The Love and Leadership Podcast at loveandleadershippodcast.com or wherever you find podcasts. We just want to thank you so much for listening. Mike, thank you, as always, for being my partner on this delightful journey. Love you lots.
Mike McFall:
Love you too, Laura. Thank you.
Laura Eich:
And thanks everybody for listening. We can't wait to see you next time.