In this week’s episode of Love in Leadership, we’re joined by the wonderful Katrina Ghazarian, CEO of Gameday HR. We cover everything from flexible work environments and the changing landscape of corporate America to passion, spiritual growth in the workplace, and the importance of being proactive when it comes to improving workplace environments. And — as usual — our discussion centers around love and respect for the individual.
HR: Human Revolution (featuring Katrina Ghazarian)
Putting the human back in human resources
GUEST BIO:
Katrina Ghazarian is a dynamic CEO of Gameday HR, known for her innovative approach to human resources and workplace culture. With a background that spans from banking to HR, she brings a unique blend of practical experience and insightful leadership to her role. Katrina is recognized as one of the top HR consultants in the nation, driven by her deep passion for people and commitment to employee success. Katrina advocates for proactive change in corporate America, focusing on holistic development and the power of a positive and inclusive workplace environment.
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CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:
[0:30] - Insecurity: From College to the Job Hunt
Flipping the script on the employer-applicant relationship
Mike McFall opens the conversation by discussing his recent interaction with college students. He observes their insecurity regarding employment, noting their perception of employers as all-knowing entities. Mike remarks, "They're so insecure about the process... like the employer is this all-knowing czar." The truth, he says, is much different — employers are often trying to figure things out as they go, and in new employees they’re looking for a partner to help them do it.
[23:55] - There Is No “Traditional” Workweek
Longer hours don’t add up to better performance
Mike and the gang question the conventional 40-60 hour workweek in corporate America, proposing that optimal performance doesn't necessarily correlate with longer hours. He challenges the notion of hard work equating to actual output. We tend to assume that the people who work the hardest make the most impact, but this isn’t always the case.
[33:10] - Flexibility, Autonomy, and Joy
How work life has changed in the last decade
The team highlights how the evolution of workplace flexibility, particularly the shift towards hybrid work environments, has made the professional world much more human-friendly. Katrina emphasizes the importance of adapting to modern work demands, and how the last ten years has seen a monumental shift in flexibility of schedules and the physical places people can work and work from — though there’s still a long way to go.
[42:12] - HR as Human Growth Advocate
Putting the “human” back in “human resources”
Katrina discusses the significance of HR in facilitating not just professional but personal growth of employees. She shares her belief that love in leadership means “accepting everyone for who they are as they are now,” combining this acceptance with the ambition to be a true resource for spiritual growth for every individual at your organization.
[1:00:57] - Busting Stereotypes in HR and Business
How Katrina is helping change the game in HR
Katrina challenges the traditional perceptions and stereotypes in HR and business, particularly regarding women in leadership roles. She advocates for a more inclusive and understanding approach, saying: "You have to be a good person, which means you have got to do a lot of your inner work." This flies in the face of the profits-first, people-second approach of many companies
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ABOUT LOVE IN LEADERSHIP:
At the Life You Love LaboratoryTM and BIGGBY® COFFEE, we’re out to prove that financial success and healthy workplace culture aren’t two separate goals. BIGGBY® COFFEE's own cultural transformation is proof that not only is it possible to have a successful company where people aren’t miserable at work, but that the happier your people are, the more your business will grow. Each week, join host Laura Eich, Chief Purpose Officer at BIGGBY® COFFEE, and her co-host and BIGGBY® COFFEE co-CEO Mike McFall as they’re joined by guests from around the world to learn how they are fostering a culture of love and growth in the world’s most innovative and people-centric companies. Get inspired. Get real. Get ready to transform workplace culture in America with us. This is the Love in Leadership podcast.
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ABOUT THE HOSTS:
Mike McFall began his journey with BIGGBY® COFFEE as a minimum-wage barista at the original store in East Lansing in 1996. Over the span of 23 years, alongside business partner Bob Fish, he has helped create one of the great specialty coffee brands in America. Today Mike is co-CEO with Bob, and BIGGBY® COFFEE has over 250 stores open throughout the Midwest that sell tens of thousands of cups of coffee each day. But more importantly to Mike and BIGGBY® COFFEE, the company is a profoundly people-first organization.
Mike is also the author of Grind, a book which focuses on early stage businesses and how to establish positive cash flow.
Laura Eich is BIGGBY® COFFEE’s Chief People Officer, having worked in a variety of roles at BIGGBY® COFFEE for the last 11+ years. She helped launch BOOST, the department at BIGGBY® COFFEE which ultimately became LifeLabTM — BIGGBY® COFFEE’s inhouse culture cultivation team designed to help people be the best versions of themselves and help companies support them along the way. In her role, Laura helps people build lives that they love through the process of building profitable businesses and robust, growth-filled careers.
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Laura Eich:
Welcome to the Love in Leadership Podcast. My name's Laura Eich. I am joined as always by my very favorite, very favorite co-host, Mike McFall. Mike, how are you doing?
Mike McFall:
Good, Laura. Thank you. I'm going to leave out the word only and say, "Yeah, I'm your favorite. That's awesome," as we do, right?
Laura Eich:
[inaudible 00:00:28].
Mike McFall:
As we do.
Laura Eich:
As we do.
Mike McFall:
So, I've been struck this morning and I've been contemplating that I was with a bunch of students last night in a relatively informal engagement, college students, and able to free flow and riff with them, and I was really struck by their approach to employment and how... I mean, these are really bright, bright kids who are going to an amazing school, but they're so insecure about the process and it's like the employer is this all-knowing czar and they're just trying to figure out how to fit their piece of the puzzle into that it's like, "No, you all are magic. You all are beautiful, and any employer would be so honored to have you," and so why is the mentality a position of weakness that these-
Laura Eich:
Is it-
Mike McFall:
Yeah, go ahead.
Laura Eich:
Well, do they have jobs right now or are they thinking about the job they dream of in 10, 15 years and thinking that it needs to be right now? I remember in college I felt all of the pressure going to a liberal arts private school. I was like the expectation put on me is that I come out of this with a really well-paying secure job that I then do for the next 50 years of my life or whatever, and I felt all that pressure and I was a music major.
Mike McFall:
Are you serious? That's what-
Laura Eich:
Yeah.
Mike McFall:
Wait. Coming out of your family, how is that possible? I mean, your family owned a small business, entrepreneurial, like that was really the expectation for you going to-
Laura Eich:
I mean, yeah, and I'm not sure it was my family. I actually think I went to a private high school too that was a college preparatory school, and it's very much like you have to get the great grades in high school in order to get the great grades in college in order to get the great job right after college. That was the expectation for why I-
Mike McFall:
Yeah, it's such bullshit.
Laura Eich:
... should have done my homework and I didn't, but that's a different story.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, but it's such bullshit, right? It's such bullshit. That mentality drives me absolutely crazy.
Laura Eich:
Is that what they're talking about though?
Mike McFall:
Yeah, maybe.
Laura Eich:
Okay.
Mike McFall:
And I just sit there, I'm like, "Wait. Wait. Y'all aren't thinking about things like how do I want to live? Where do I want to live? What do I want my day to feel like?" All we're going to look at is getting a job that pays you well, and by the way, that job coming out of college, I mean, in my mind is like, "Who cares?" You know?
Laura Eich:
Right.
Mike McFall:
Just get some more experience. Go do something cool.
Laura Eich:
No one says that though in college, I don't think.
Mike McFall:
I don't think they do either, but I was like an alien last night saying this kind of stuff to them, like truly an alien.
Laura Eich:
I'm so glad you were-
Mike McFall:
I guess.
Laura Eich:
... because yeah.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, and it's like, "Yeah, go do a job for a while and learn some stuff and then go do a different job for a while and learn some stuff," and then eventually, hopefully you settle into something. Okay, so here's the other thing. Here's the other thing. I won't name any names, but I was having a conversation with a college president and he said, "Here's the problem. Here's the problem. Parents think about one thing." Like 85% of parents, number one survey issue, is how much money is my kid going to make coming out of your college? And then the disconnect for him is the faculty at the college. It's like 7% say that how much money a kid makes coming out of college is important. The faculty don't give a rip about how much money kids make coming out of college. They want the kids to learn. They want to have them to have a good experience in college, but what is going on with parents? Your number one concern about your child's college experience is how much money they're going to make coming out of school. What is wrong with you people?
Laura Eich:
Yeah, I think that can happen, especially with the parents who are paying for college though, because they're literally trying to figure out what their return on investment is going to be or something like that. Like if they've helped them pay for school at all, they want to know that it literally pays off and that kid will be able to live on their own and afford their own housing and afford their own food and be safe and secure, I'm sure. Like I'm sure that's part of the thinking too, but I think that's the parent thing.
Mike McFall:
So, am I coming at this from some weird privileged place? I don't think kids should be worrying about whether they make 68,000 or 42,000 or 31,000 or 95,000.
Laura Eich:
I don't know. Maybe.
Mike McFall:
Is that because I have some level of privilege or something? Because I think that's the last thing in the world a kid should be thinking about. I don't think that people should be worrying about money, but it seems like everybody else is worried about money and my perspective on that is I think people don't live in a space of abundance and they're so wrapped up so tight around money that money's this crazy negative energy in their life and then money... I know I'm getting a little out there on that, but it's like I do believe money's an energy and I've never worried about money my whole life, and as you know, and you are forced to live with me professionally on this whole deal. I can spend money like it's nothing, you know?
Laura Eich:
Yeah.
Mike McFall:
I can rip through and so anyway, I worry. I just worry that the college experience should be so magical and beautiful, and we should be focused on the things that make life fulfilling, not how much money are you going to make. So, I was a little put off by all that.
Laura Eich:
I think it's both. I mean, I think it's both. I do think it's a relatively privileged position, which I think I was in too where I knew I had a parental safety net there if I got into too much trouble, but also the expectation was very much on me from my mid-teens that I would be working and I would be making my own money if I wanted to buy the fun things and everything like that. So, I think it's a little privileged position to be able to not worry that much versus I know I had some friends who didn't have the safety net kind of situation and they worried constantly about how they were going to afford groceries the next week or how they were going to afford rent next month.
So, yes, I think there is some amount of privilege involved in being able to not worry about money or worry about money less or know that you have a safety net in place if you were to get into some sort of trouble. There is privilege there, but I hope kids in college are having the chance to have their perspective broadened and dream a little and find new things that they love and find new friendships and everything like that because I think that all influences their future in a bigger way than their current financial situation, whatever that may be.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, I know. I get a little sideways on all of it. I just have higher really... I think we should be focused on creating the future leaders of the world, not focused on how much money somebody's going to make coming out of school. That's my take in its broadest form. The other thing that happened last night that I thought was interesting is a student asked me, he said, "So, I'm really interested in being with a company where my values align and what the culture of that company is like and so on. How do you suggest in an interview that I try to figure all that out?" And I said, "Well, just ask them for 3 references or 4 references. Ask them for somebody who's been there-
Laura Eich:
Within the company.
Mike McFall:
... 2 years and somebody who's been here 4 years and 7 years and 12 years and then call them and talk to them and talk to them about their experience," and the student was like, "You can do that?" I'm like, "I think so." I guess I've never heard of somebody doing that before, but absolutely, like why not?
Laura Eich:
Totally.
Mike McFall:
And see, like is the stuff they're telling you in the interview process, is it real?
Laura Eich:
Right, and even asking if you aren't feeling bold enough to ask the company for references, which by the way, probably most companies are going to fumble a little bit in that moment because they might not be prepared to give you references, but give them a minute and they should be able to do that, but you can also ask, "What are your core values as a company and how does that show up every day at work and what are your cultural values?" If it is a company that claims to have a higher purpose or a vision like ours does, ask them about that and they should be able to say it right off the bat, and it's actually, if they can't say it right off the bat, if they can't name their values or name their purpose, but they claim to have one, that might be a sign. So, just keep asking.
I think the questions that the interviewee asks the interviewers are sometimes even more important than the whole rest of the interview as someone who sits in on a fair amount of interviews. So, I love that. I love that they asked that too. That's very-
Mike McFall:
Yeah, I thought that was great.
Laura Eich:
... astute of them. Yeah. All right, so speaking of brilliant things and people, that's my segue to our guest today because we have a beautiful human being, Katrina Ghazarian on the pod today. She is a CEO and company owner of an HR consulting company, but I feel like the picture people have in their minds of a CEO and business owner of an HR consulting company is probably not the accurate picture to who she is. So, we need to jump right in because we need her to introduce herself and tell us all about what she's got going on and I think this is going to be a really fun, interesting, deep, powerful conversation. So, let's jump into it.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, I've been looking forward. Let's do it.
Laura Eich:
Let's do it. All right, friends, are we ready to jump in?
Mike McFall:
Absolutely.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Let's do it.
Laura Eich:
All right. Welcome, Katrina. We could introduce you, but I think you do a much better job of introducing yourself. So, if you could kick us off today by telling us who are you, where are you from, and what is it that you do?
Katrina Ghazarian:
I feel like all three of those questions change every single day.
Laura Eich:
This will be an exciting answer then.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah, I would say the attachments I have are that my name is Katrina Ghazarian. I am the CEO of Game Day HR. I was born and raised in Southern California, Los Angeles County specifically, and what we do at GameDay HR is we are improving the workplace through very results-oriented and strategic initiatives with small and mid-sized businesses.
Laura Eich:
Awesome. That was really good. Very clear.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Thanks.
Laura Eich:
Talk us through how you got here in life, and I mean, hit us with the highlights of maybe where you came from, how you ended up in the HR field? What did you do before becoming CEO of your own company kind of thing? How'd you get here?
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah. I think that it is still shocking to a lot of people in my life that I run an HR company because it probably feels like the antithesis of who I am as a person, or at least the reputation that HR tends to have of being by the book and sterile and rules oriented where I believe that they feel like I break all the rules. I am not sterile. I'm quite dirty in some ways to keep it PG. So, really, I would say that I started my career in retail banking out of high school. I was working for commercial banks. I was a teller, then became a personal banker, was really great at sales, and I started climbing up pretty high in a quick amount of time and then the financial crisis of 2008, 2009 happened and really just completely obliterated any progress that I had made because as one of the younger employees, I was going to be one of the first ones out.
So, I spent about 10 months looking for a job and to keep it short, it essentially took me about six years to make what I was making prior to the financial crisis. So, I've always felt about six years behind in what I was trying to accomplish. I joke around about it today, but I was rocking like a 550 FIO score because I had to let all of my credit cards go into debt and it was a very humbling experience and so during that time, my old basketball coach, he coached me when I was a freshman, offered me a coaching position at the school that he was at, and I took it and that was the start of me really diving into sports again, playing different capacities, not as a player anymore and from being a coach, I went on to officiating high school and college women's basketball.
And unfortunately, in the sports industry, we're just not paid enough. Unless you have some kind of executive position at the league or a team, you're not making a livable wage and so I had become a mother and I essentially needed to get a real job with benefits and so I got into recruiting and I was able to use what I've learned as a coach and an official and was really good at recruiting and identifying talent for specific teams. A client of mine poached me from the recruiting firm that I was at, and I essentially started recruiting for all of their portfolio companies. As they were creating new brands, they needed more HR support, documentation, performance management and I really learned by myself essentially how to do all of that and really take responsibility in all of that and then I felt... My daughter is about three years old and I just didn't have any time with her that I would've liked to have.
So, there was really a choice of coming from a workaholic mother. I chose that. I didn't really want to follow in that path and I love my mom and I definitely get my work ethic from her, but I do think that at the time, there just wasn't the level of autonomy that we have today in the workplace and so she just missed out on a lot of things in my life, a lot of my growing up. So, when my employer at the time didn't approve me changing my schedule, I essentially said that I'm going to go build my own book of HR business in 30 days and so I gave a 30 days' notice, and on my last week there, I essentially pitched them my new services and they ended up taking it, and they're actually my clients for seven years after that and that was the start of Game Day HR.
Laura Eich:
So cool. I had no idea about the sports element of your journey. I had heard some of the other pieces, but-
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah, no, I had dreams of being the first female head coach in the NBA. Eventually that evolved to wanting to own an NBA team, which is something Mike and I have talked about here and there.
Mike McFall:
We're working on that. Yeah, we're working on that.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah, and more recently, I would say just attaining knowledge. In the women's sports side, I've realized it doesn't even have to be the NBA. I think even a women's sports team would be really effective where I can use that team as an example of what company culture should look like in the sports industry.
Laura Eich:
Oh, man, and there's so much we could dive into there as far as leadership and the results, not being about business and financial, but more about people and performance and thriving, and oh, that's exciting. We probably will dive more into that a little bit later, but I wanted to dive in because right at the post banking, post sports, you mentioned that HR gets bad rap, and I feel like that's something that you combat very directly through the way that you run your business now and so can you just unpack that a little bit? What is the current almost stigma around HR in the world? Because I think it's changed a little bit, but what do you see as the current stigma around HR and what are you doing within your company to change that expectation with people one company at a time?
Katrina Ghazarian:
Well, I've definitely been in situations where I was the disgruntled employee and I felt like leadership or HR had an opportunity to make things better for me in the workplace and they really just failed to do that and I'll give you an example. When I was still working in banking, I had became an assistant coach with a friend of mine and at some point, my manager at the time came to me and was essentially like, "You have to choose," and I felt like, I know you all are into Enneagrams, as an eight, which is the challenger. I'm like, "Don't tell me what to do," because I'm going to do the other thing, by the way.
So I really think that that caused a rift between the management team and myself because I felt like they were just undermining what my dreams were and I thought that if they had taken the position of supporting me and fulfilling my dreams, that the award from that would be exponential. Would I be working for them still? Probably not, but I would refer family and friends to go work there and you have to think about the cumulative cost of one bad disgruntled employee and the cost to the employer brand that could be year after year and to this day, it's been 14 years and we're still talking about it.
So, I thought that they missed some opportunities there and so really, when I got into HR, I definitely had to learn the technicalities of HR, but one thing that I did have was the people portion of it and so this idea that you have to be liked or respected, I was really focused on turning that upside down and I was really focused on proving that I can be liked and respected, which is what I did as a basketball coach to 16, 17-year-old girls. So, I really feel in HR, you can learn all of the compliance things and you can get all of the certifications, which by the way, I have no formal training. I have no formal education-
Laura Eich:
I was going to ask.
Katrina Ghazarian:
... and I don't have a single HR certificate.
Laura Eich:
Wow. Wow. Wow.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah, and I would say humbly that I'm probably one of the top HR consultants in the nation, and that's not because I have formal training, it's because I love people and people know that I love them and they know that I am focused on their success and their happiness no matter who they are and so I think HR has an opportunity to really have a passion for the success of every single person in the organization and really tie that into the business objectives. I don't feel that HR has a strong business acumen as an industry right now. I think they're very focused on keeping organizations out of the courtroom and paperwork and documentation, but they don't understand P&L reports. They don't understand balance sheets. They're not tracking certain OKRs or KPIs. They don't even know what their turnover is and so I just feel like of all the departments, HR seems to be the least analytical, and I think that we need to see more data and more analytics to support the feelings that you have. You know?
Laura Eich:
Yeah. That was so good. I think you're maybe my hero.
Katrina Ghazarian:
I think you're my hero. I saw you dancing in some suit a couple months ago on the stage.
Laura Eich:
I oversaw our HR department with no certifications and with no qualifications and just doing my best. I don't think I was the greatest at it, which is thankfully why we have found a brilliant HR person for our company, but the fact that you've built all this knowing... I just personally know what the eyebrow raises can be like when you don't have the sherm CP after your name and everything like that. So, I think that's just so much even more admirable that you're just like, "I'm just going to build this and I'm going to be awesome at it," and that's going to be the proof. I don't need letters after-
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah, or I'm lazy and I didn't want to sit there and fake.
Laura Eich:
I don't think it's that.
Katrina Ghazarian:
I'm lazy and I'm arrogant and I actually don't feel like listening to people who are less intelligent than I am is really what it was.
Laura Eich:
I don't think there's any lazy or arrogant in you.
Mike McFall:
So, can I dive in?
Laura Eich:
Yeah, of course.
Mike McFall:
All right. All right.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Head first?
Mike McFall:
Yeah.
Laura Eich:
Here we go.
Mike McFall:
Here we go. So, in a talk I give, I state that it's not about how hard you work, it's about optimal performance, and I've got myself into some hot water in talks from people who think that's an irresponsible message to send other people, but I make the statement, if an NFL football team, or insert WNBA basketball team, if they thought that making their players practice six and a half, seven hours a day on the floor, plus doing video would help them win games, they would do it, but they don't, right? They don't and so in your mind, why do we as managers of corporate America think that 60-hour work weeks or 40-hour work weeks are the answer when it's about optimal performance at the end of the day? So, why is there that disconnect between, let's say, a sports team where they're really truly trying to get these people to perform at their highest level possible and they make them work two to three to four hours a day and then in corporate America, somehow we think 50 or 60 hours a week is the right move?
Katrina Ghazarian:
It's interesting you use that as an example because I know over the last couple of years, NBA players have spoken out about the length of their practices and the practices being too long, and that being a possibility of why they're being injured more. I believe it was Leonard from... I think he was at the Spurs at the time or he's still there. I think he was very outspoken about that. So, it's interesting you bring that up because that actually is a topic of contention in the NBA specifically about duration of practices, but-
Mike McFall:
How long are the duration of practices? Because I know hockey players that I know that play professionally and football players, they talk about how the hardest transition after retirement is going from working two, three hours a day to working eight, nine hours a day and how they just don't have the free time they once had and so on, and even college players moving into the pros will say they don't know what to do with all their free time because they used to be a student and an athlete. Now, they're just an athlete. So, maybe the NBA is a little bit of a different animal. Maybe they do practice a lot harder than the other sports, but I know hockey and football, they're not grinding away six hours a day practicing or whatever.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah, I think that they're doing a couple of hours of strength and conditioning plus on-court Xs and Os type drills, plus they're in recovery with physical therapists. So, I believe it's like an all-day... It is like a full-time job for them, or at least it was at the time. I haven't really gone back in to see what the results of that was, but I believe companies are really stuck on this hours and work how many hours somebody needs to work because they aren't really taking the time to understand what optimal performance even looks like and so I'll give you an example, and this is something that I say all the time. I don't care if it takes you two hours to get it done. As long as it's done, take the rest of the day off. I don't really care, but that's because I've really put in key metrics so that way when those metrics aren't being hit, I can go back to the employee and say, "Hey, maybe we need to spend more time on this throughout the day," and still give them the autonomy to figure that out.
I think that there is this... It's interesting because a lot of leadership complain about employees acting like children or employees aren't grateful, which are very common things that we say to our kids sometimes. So, I find that interesting because you're treating them like kids, so it's what you get and so my employees, I don't treat them like kids. I treat them like adults. I don't care what time they work because it's outlined what needs to happen and what success looks like for their position. So, I think if company leaders really put some time and look, it's a huge time investment. The bigger the company, the longer it's going to take you to really figure this out. You have to look at company objectives as a whole, trickle those down to departments, trickle that down into mid-level management and so on and so on. It takes time to do that.
However, if you did do that, then I think not only will you experience more of a work-life balance with your employees, but you'll actually achieve those objectives because employees actually know how success is being measured. I can't tell you how many times we've seen performance reviews and an employee goes into their performance review thinking like they're crushing it only for the manager to tell them that they haven't been, but they've never once talked about it. They never brought it up and it's because their performance isn't being measured by OKRs or KPIs. It's being measured by feelings and stuff, which is the reason why we have such a largely disengaged workforce in the US. I've written about this. These reports are as high as 84% and so I do think that that's the disconnect is corporate leaders aren't really taking the time to create the three to five OKRs that each position is responsible for and then putting those vehicles in place on how those are going to be measured, whether they're being achieved or not.
Laura Eich:
Well, there's a pretty common fear. I think it's a fear amongst bosses. I'll just put bosses all in the same category where the fear is everybody has different individual needs, what you just described, where they might need different times of day. They might need to design their day differently. I have someone on my team who loves to start their day not being talked to and reading and writing and that type of thinking and then if they can do that, then they are set up for success for the rest of their day and they're going to be able to work better for the rest of their day. I have another person who needs to be working for a longer day so that she can take more frequent brain breaks and escape the world a few more times. So, she'll disappear throughout the day and that sort of thing, and our world of flexibility allows for that.
But I know the fear with bosses is if I allow for different things with different people, that somehow that will be perceived as unfair rather than in my mind, it's actually more fair that individuals are being given what they need. They're being given the opportunity for what they need. They can design the best work environment for them. Again, as long as they know what's expected of them, they know what's needed from them throughout the day and that kind of thing, but there's a fear across the organizations that if I do things differently for different people, I'll get in trouble as a boss or I'll be perceived as favoring someone or whatever. Do you encounter that same fear?
Katrina Ghazarian:
I absolutely do, and I'm going to get really woo-woo about that and tell you that we fear ourselves in others and so if their fear is other people will judge them or their team will think that they're not being fair. It's because they're judging themselves and they're judging their team for wanting these different flexibilities. So, look, at the end of the day, I don't care. I don't care. I'm going to make sure each of my team members have what they need to be successful, whether they're working at midnight or they're working 45 hours a week or they're working 20 hours a week, but getting it done. I don't really care.
The only time somebody I think is really truly going to have a problem with it is because they're just not doing what they need to be doing and when you cater to that, when you cater to those types of personalities and you're not being truthful to them and saying like, "Hey Laura, I think your ego is in the way on this," like what's really going on for you. Then you're constantly going to be victim to that type of criticism and I just choose not to engage with that type of criticism at all.
Laura Eich:
I need a little more Enneagram eight in my life as a nine.
Mike McFall:
If you were looking at corporate America, midsize business, what's been the single best improvement over the last decade from your perspective?
Katrina Ghazarian:
It's interesting because when I left being an employee, it was really because of the lack of flexibility. Well, that's not the case anymore and so I even went through my own dark tunnel where I had to really unattach from this term CEO or business owner or entrepreneur because I realized that the reasons why I became one aren't as relevant today because now we have hybrid workforce and so I think that that has probably been the biggest improvement over the last 10 years is the flexibility I get. Some companies are still pretty strict on some of those things.
Mike McFall:
They're trying to be.
Katrina Ghazarian:
They're trying to be, but they're going to have a hard time being desirable to top talent. They're going to have a hard time retaining their good employees or employees in all shapes and sizes and so I do think that that has in the last 10 years, at least in my perception, my lens, that has been the biggest improvement is the flexibility and schedule and the flexibility in where you can work.
Laura Eich:
What's one of those traditional leadership things that still need to just die? I always ask that so harshly. I have to find a nicer way to ask that, but there's old habits die hard. What are one of those that just need to be let go of or a leadership myth or one of those?
Katrina Ghazarian:
Gosh, there's a couple, but I would say the one that stands out to me the most is employees having to keep their personal and professional lives separate. So, I think that that is not only... It's proven that it's been pretty toxic, but it's also been proven that you can't and so oftentimes, you see these hard-charging business influencers, and when they say all the things, but then you look at their life and you realize they have no kids. They may not even be married. They're mostly male. They're mostly white males saying that and so you look at that and you realize they just don't understand. They're pretty one dimensional and you look at these influencers who say like, "You need to put your friends and family aside. You need to say no to everything in order to be successful," and again, you see that they have no kids. They probably don't have very many friends.
I heard this on Chef's Table during the pandemic, and I believe it was Christina Tosi. She's the founder of Milk Bar, and she was a workaholic and I remember something that she said on that documentary, and she said, "It's so one dimensional. It's so boring for you to only be able to talk about work and everything revolve around work, like you're a boring person," and I look at people who are that way, and I agree, and I know people personally. It's like as soon as you see them, it's like, "Oh, how are you? Oh, work." I'm like, "Oh God. Go streak or something. Go get some excitement in your life because your work is... It's so one dimensional." So, I think that this idea that you have to leave your personal stuff at the door is very antiquated and it needs to go.
Mike McFall:
Well, and I think that the one dimensional piece of it, I think it makes you a poor leader, frankly, and if you're going to lead people, the topic of this podcast is love in leadership, and it's really hard to love someone and be empathetic of somebody's situation if you can't relate to it in any way. Meaning if your only perspective is work and all of a sudden somebody that works with you ends up in a situation with a child that you can't lead that person, I don't think. I think it's very difficult to lead that person without having any kind of understanding around it.
So, I think that perspective of workaholic, like I've always said workaholics don't have good relationships. They don't love their spouses or they don't like their lives or they don't like their friends. They don't like their families. There's no way in the world I would give up my life to become a workaholic. I mean, never, and I've always said if it took being a workaholic to make my business successful, I wouldn't want the business. So, anyway, I love that talking through the one dimensional aspect of many leaders, and that's just flawed. It's a flawed approach.
Katrina Ghazarian:
It's a stressful approach because I think that they expect everyone to prioritize work the way that they do. So, if you don't, then they judge you and they're upset and they're frustrated. So, I feel like it's stressful for them to think that way and to have those expectations, and I recently had a conversation with a friend who his life partner, he's like the management. It's a small company that they run and his partner is on the team and there was an issue that came up and he told me, "Well, I just want to be unbiased in this situation," and I'm like, "Bro, no. Let me tell you, if the choice is this job or her, you choose her. That is it. That is it." So, there really is no choice. A job is a job. You'll find another one, but it's very hard to replace those meaningful relationships in your life.
Laura Eich:
I've had that conversation with a few people over time where it's, I think, workaholicism, if that can be an ism. Usually, a big symptom of that is someone finding their entire identity in their job, and that leads to a full identity crisis if the job was to be taken away, and also it just limits your thinking when you're in the job because you're so afraid, again, of what might be taken away if this job was taken away because that's your whole identity and so I know I've had the conversation with people where as much as I love my job, I find so much purpose and meaning in my job. I also remind them, "It's just a job, you guys. It's really okay. There's more jobs." There's a lot of jobs.
Katrina Ghazarian:
There is, and my mom is patient zero for this whole thing. I've lived very close to this situation my entire life and until this day, she's in her early 60s. She's still working like a dog and I realized I've let go of the idea of what a happy life looks like for her and I realized my parents did what they were supposed to do. They got out of religious persecution from Egypt and came here to the United States, and now I have a better opportunity and so I understand my lens of happiness is very different from her lens of happiness. However, now in her age, she's really starting to question. She's talking to all these people and they all have retirement plans, and she's like, "I don't have a plan," and I'm like, "Yeah, because you don't really have close relationships. You don't have people you could travel with."
So, even her, she's in her 60s, is finally waking up to that, and all I could be was an example and a shepherd for her and a safe place for her, but I mean, I would be lying if I told you it wasn't frustrating to witness. I'm sure you've been in the situation where you're like, "I know the exact solution to this problem. It's right here. I want to give it to you," and they're like, "No, no. I can't do that," and I think it's because she puts her identity in her work 100%. She is really good at it.
Mike McFall:
If you had to describe love in leadership, what does that look like to you?
Katrina Ghazarian:
Love in leadership is like accepting everyone for who they are as they are now, and then having the ambition to be a resource for them in their spiritual growth. That's what I believe love is. So, love is I accept you in all the things that you are. Good, bad, everything, whatever. I don't even labeling things as good or bad. I might label them more as conscious or unconscious, but I accept you and I'm going to be here when you're ready. Now, I'm not going to stress myself out and try to give you a message that you're not ready to receive and you may leave the company because you're not understanding it, but when you're ready to come back, because they always do.
I'll be here continuing to love you. I think that is what love through leadership is understanding and casting your net infinitely wider on who you love and so love is so conditional to so many people. I only will love you when you perform well. I will only love you when you show up for me. I will only love you this, this, this, and that. That's not love. I think love is unconditional and so whether you're performing or you're not performing, you tell me to go fuck myself, I'm still going to love you and that's it and there really is no conditions that I set for it.
Now, do I constantly work on this every day? Absolutely, but when I'm triggered, I definitely take the time to go into that and say, "Why is this person triggering for me?" I usually can get to the point, and I even do this physical kind of exercise where whether I'm doing yoga or I'm meditating, that the person I feel is triggering me, I imagine the white light from my heart shining on them and that really melts away these judgments or my ego about them and so I think love in leadership is just what it is. It's love, but understanding how we're defining love is really important.
Laura Eich:
That's beautiful.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Oh, thanks.
Mike McFall:
I found it interesting that you used the term spiritual growth. That's not something that we talk about internally in our world. We talk about growth. We talk about self-development, but we don't include this. We don't include the terminology or the word spiritual in our world.
Katrina Ghazarian:
I think from the exposure that I've had to highly evolved people, the common thing is that they believe there is a source, a collective. We are all connected in some magical way and so when I say spiritual growth, it's not necessarily religious. I don't particularly identify with the religion, but I believe Jesus was probably a freaking badass when he was here. So, was Muhammad and so was David and so I believe that there were this... Even in the Christians, they say, "Jesus will come again," that Jesus will return. I think Jesus has already returned in many different forms and Gandhi and Mother Teresa, I think that our idea of Christ and God is just very divided.
So, when I say spiritually grow, it's really growing into who they really are and accessing that infinite and abundant pool that's inside of them. So, it's not really a religious thing and I do think that we take... I think that we've commoditized maybe a little too much of spiritual and these gurus and things like that. It's becoming trendy to do certain things like ayahuasca and I do question the validity and what we're doing with commoditizing that so much, but that's really what I mean. It's just helping them find the way back to themselves really, I guess, is a better way to put it.
Laura Eich:
Spiritual being like internal energy, the stuff that makes us us.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Right.
Mike McFall:
Or do you mind if I tear down this path a little further?
Laura Eich:
You can, sure.
Mike McFall:
So, what do you say to somebody, Katrina, who says, "Listen, my job was to make widgets and make as many widgets as profitably as I possibly can. Why do I give a about spiritual development of somebody on my team?"
Katrina Ghazarian:
Why does everybody use widgets as an example?
Mike McFall:
It's what we learned in economics classes, the widgets, the product.
Katrina Ghazarian:
I don't even think I know what a widget is.
Mike McFall:
Nobody does.
Laura Eich:
It's not actually a thing. Is that what you-
Mike McFall:
Nobody knows what a widget is.
Laura Eich:
... teach in class? Okay.
Mike McFall:
That's the point.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Like every example.
Mike McFall:
No, no, no, no, like in economics classes, that's what you call the product. You call the product a widget. That's just the deal.
Laura Eich:
Why don't you just call it a product?
Mike McFall:
I don't know.
Laura Eich:
Not the point. This is not the point. Keep going.
Mike McFall:
That's the point, but seriously, if somebody's going to reply to you, "Yeah, all right. That sounds great, but listen, I was hired to make widgets and make as many widgets as I can and efficiently as possible and make as much money as I can." What does somebody's spiritual development have to do with that?
Katrina Ghazarian:
Well, I think it's both. I don't think you have to choose. I think that you can help someone on their spiritual path and make a ton of money and optimize your practices, and I mean, there's no choice in that. In fact, I actually believe that people who can access the source or get into flow state as often as possible can be far more efficient than they already are and far more effective than they already are. When you have tunnel vision, you're stuck and you're on this path and you're not seeing anything else and so even one of the mantras that I have is show me all there is to see, and I think that that's why they should care is because even if they only cared about making as much money as possible, spiritually growing themselves and being a resource for other people makes them even more money and makes... I mean, it's a byproduct, don't get me wrong, but it makes them far more effective and far more optimized if they are evolved as a human.
Laura Eich:
Do you have farther to go down the path?
Mike McFall:
No, no, no. I can pull out.
Katrina Ghazarian:
We're going to tear some more shit up, Mike?
Mike McFall:
What's that?
Katrina Ghazarian:
We're going to tear some more shit up?
Laura Eich:
Well, that actually brings me, because the thing I wanted to have you explain, because I think you're dancing really near it, is actually the work that your company does and I know you didn't ask us to be like, "Hey, be a commercial for what you do," but what we've hired you to do with us before and what other companies have hired you to do is to try and quantify the thing you were just describing, which is if you can do certain things that give people a little more of what they need, what does it do to your business? Can you just explain how you go about working with companies and what you think about and how you try to quantify it? Because this is, I think, just the brilliance of what GameDay HR does.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah, thank you for saying that. I believe there's definitely a dichotomy to me as a person, and as the leader of Game Day HR, there's this side of me that is very data and analytics space, and that helps me get in the door to these companies. If I can show you that doing these things improves profitability in your business, I can get in the door. Then I would say the artistic expressionist of Katrina trickles in slowly and that's when it becomes more about like, "Doesn't that feel good? Do you want to make more money and feel good about doing it?" So, that's when I get to have these opportunities to love them and help them grow spiritually as a leader and I'm always recommending books and podcasts and the joke is, like my daughter sometimes overhears these calls and she's like, "Another therapy session, Mom?" So, I'm like, "Yeah, and I didn't have to pay tens of thousands of dollars to go to school for it. Isn't that neat? And they pay me."
So, I think that my way into the door, and I'll give you another example of a project we do. We do an equal pay analysis. Now, I don't think companies aren't just going to be opening their doors and be like, "Hey, let me see if you're a fair and equal place." No. So, instead it gets brought in as a compensation model and then through that, I'm able to audit them to determine if they're an equal pay employer. So, I definitely understand what's going to open the door and what's going to slam the door on my face and I have no pride about it. At the end of the day, I just want to do my work and I want the work to be good. So, if I have to mask it in some other business thing like, "Hey, I can help you improve profitability in your company," and that gets me in, I'll take it. I'll take it because with each company that we've worked for, I can proudly say that they get it by the time we're done.
They get it. They're a choice employer. I'm happy to recruit people to go work for them because they've turned their culture around and so improving profitability is my way in. It's proven. It works. We look at the financials of our clients at the beginning of our engagement. We look at it at the end of our engagement. We look at it even after we're disengaged to see how things are going and it works. The work that we do, it's good and it's well. It does well for the business and so essentially that's been my foot in the door is I can help you. I can help you with your money. Let me in, and I feel good about it, and by the way, do you want this poetry book by Rumi?
Laura Eich:
And the types of things that you end up suggesting with companies? You don't have to obviously tie them to a specific group or anything, but what types of practices or policies or ideas even do you find that people end up enacting and including? What do they keep doing after you're disengaged? Because I always feel like that's a big testament.
Katrina Ghazarian:
So, one of the foundational approaches that we have when clients come to us and they say, "I think we need to have more recognition opportunities in our company." My first pushback is where's the data that says you need to do that? So, what we're seeing a lot of companies do is they're just throwing things against the wall and they're hoping that something sticks. Well, that not only takes your employees on a rollercoaster ride, but it's very costly in time and resources and so I always try to get them to understand we need a vehicle for data. We need a benchmark data and analytics and then use that data to determine what our priorities are going to be because one of the nuances about human resources is you're dealing with humans and humans are diverse and they're unpredictable and they go through different seasons and chapters in their life all at different times.
So, what works for BIGGBY is not going to be the same thing that works for a men's jewelry line. So, we have to make sure that we're collecting specific data on that demographic before I am comfortable moving through initiatives. One of the things that we did with BIGGBY was we did employee engagement surveys and we collected data and through that data, we saw, like it actually wasn't going to cost anything for these stores to do any of these things. It was just either miscommunications, misunderstandings. We need to just run some market data and that was it. I think the most they spent was they bought a new cold brew pitcher or something-
Laura Eich:
Yeah, that was one of my favorite stories.
Katrina Ghazarian:
... which you make an employee happy for 20 bucks. I don't know how much that costs. So, that's the most common thing we do is we put HR analytics in place and we put the vehicles in order to track those analytics and so even when we're gone, the system is there and it continues to benchmark and track those analytics.
Laura Eich:
And very often, I think the HR analytics at least start with just asking people, right? Like asking your employees, "Hey, what would make your life better?" That's how we got to the cold brew pitcher, right? Because they were like, "We just don't have enough pitchers in one of our stores." Okay, we can solve that really fast.
Katrina Ghazarian:
There are definitely some more obvious analytics like turnover rate, time to fill, like how long is it taking for companies to fill a position? And that's where we can look at employer branding as something. So, there are some analytics that you can just get through payroll or your ATS system, and then I would say employee engagement, it has to be surveyed and one of the common mistakes that HR makes or company culture gurus who've never done HR in their life, they measure engagement on what the percentage of participation was. That's not engagement, that's just participation and so understanding what employee engagement means and what questions are you asking in order to calculate what the engagement is so that you'll get through surveys.
And if you have some short form answer sections, that's when you're going to get more direct feedback from your employees and ensuring that everybody has a voice. So, understanding that baristas or manufacturing employees, warehouse employees, they either don't have a work email at all, or they're not checking it daily like your other corporate positions are and so you need to be able to provide the tools for them to also participate and have a voice in the survey because those employees are incredibly important to the operational support of any company and so putting an iPad out with the survey open for them to take during working time is small, but goes a long way.
Mike McFall:
So, I need you to clarify some HR dorkiness terms you're using.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Okay.
Mike McFall:
OKR.
Katrina Ghazarian:
OKR Is objectives and key results. So, that's essentially like a social media coordinator. Instead of having this list of tasks that they should be doing, helping them understand what the point of those tasks are would be the OKR. So, posting on social media every day is the task, but why is this important? Well, we want to increase brand awareness. That's an OKR. So, what that does is when you put OKRs in place instead of tasks, it allows the person to be like, "Well, look, we're posting every day, but we're not increasing brand awareness." So, it gives them the autonomy and the creativity to look at, "Okay, should we do maybe three posts a week that are more higher quality," because they're focused on achieving the objective, not the task. So, that's what the objective is and each position should only have maybe three to five measurable objectives.
Mike McFall:
Okay. Thank you. Okay. I never heard of it, and then ATS.
Katrina Ghazarian:
ATS is an applicant tracking system.
Mike McFall:
Got it. Applicant tracking system.
Laura Eich:
That was good.
Katrina Ghazarian:
My work here is done.
Laura Eich:
Podcast complete. We actually are. We're running short on time. So, I have two more things that I want to pick your brain on. One, because you've referenced that you like to recommend things like books or podcasts. Do you want to pick out 1, 2, 3 favorite books or podcasts? Doesn't need to even be leadership or work related. If it is a book of poems, I embrace that too, but 1, 2, 3, top three favorite books or podcasts?
Katrina Ghazarian:
Okay, I'm going to go with books, but one of my most favorite books is Loving What Is by Byron Katie and-
Mike McFall:
On page 73 right now.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Are you reading it right now?
Mike McFall:
Page 73. That's where I am.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Did I buy that for you? Is that a book I bought?
Mike McFall:
Yeah. Yeah, and I just got through her walking the spouse through jealousy. That whole conversation, like mind-blowing, you know? Like mind-blowing. It's real good.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah. I actually got to see her in person last year and I just gave her a big hug because reading that book really helped heal the relationship with my mom. So, that book really is... I would say the premise of it is for you to love. It's not what things should be, what you think they're supposed to be, but this is what it is and learn to love what it is because it's only causing you pain-
Mike McFall:
If you have.
Katrina Ghazarian:
... and frustration by having this belief.
Laura Eich:
Oh, man. That was so-
Mike McFall:
So, I'm not done with it, but so far, 73 pages in, I'm finding value.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah, that's book one. Book two, I don't recommend this to many men, but I think men should read it and it's called Women Who Run with Wolves. It's an older book. It was the foundational book too. These big influencers you see today, like Glennon Doyle who wrote Untamed, and it really talks about the feminine in a way that is freeing and so how to keep your wildness and how we have darkness and we're predatory and being the nice girl just isn't... It causes autoimmune diseases basically. So, that book was really... It's like the Bible for women, but I do think men get a ton of value in it and understanding like when you try to control your female partner, there's repercussions to it. So, I really love that one and then the third book is Letting Go. I believe it's Steven Hawkins, not Hawking. It's Stephen Hawkins, and it really just talks about do your best work, like do what's in front of you to your greatest ability, but then let go of the outcome.
Don't do things because you're trying to control what other people think of you, or it really just shows you that you have no control anyway. So, why live your life in anxiety, and why don't you just choose a better experience and understand that whatever's happening for you is meant for you? So, do your greatest work and then let go and let the universe do the rest. So, I would say those are the top three books. I think people would be shocked of why these three books? What does this have to do with HR and business? Well, I think that if you want to be successful in HR, you got to be a good person, which means you got to do a lot of your inner work, like removing your own biases and removing your own ego from situations, your own triggers, and if you don't do that, you're just not going to be great at HR.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, beautiful. All right, I've got one more question, but Mike, before I do that, did you have anything left that you wanted to tick down?
Mike McFall:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So, one more thing, and I don't think we've talked about this, but Tasha Eurich wrote a book called Insight, right? And she states in that book, "If you think you're self-aware, you're not." Can you unpack that for me a little bit from your perspective?
Katrina Ghazarian:
It's like when you think you've learned more, you realize how much you don't know. I think that's the only way I can put it where you realize there's so much that you don't know, that you don't understand and that you're not an expert in and it really helps you stay in your lane oftentimes, but yeah. I would say the people who think they know it all know nothing and so again, when I gave this example about how the most evolved humans that I know, they understand there is something much, much bigger than anything that we can possibly grasp onto. I would say that would be the second thing is they realize they know nothing.
It's a very humbling experience. I think it's definitely a way back to your own intuitive sense, and you really getting in tune with your body and your gut and all of those things and how important that is because sometimes that's the only compass you're going to have because you can't use your brain and logic for certain things. So, I think she's 100% right. It's like the more I've learned, the more infinite I feel. There is more for me to understand, and obtain, and I think that may sound exhausting to some people or it may be sad or tragic, but I don't know. To me, it's exciting. It's exciting to not know, and I say this in an unreligious way, but it's like God always has a better plan. Whatever you think you know, like whatever you think your plan is, it's nothing compared to what's in store for you, and I think that that's really exciting.
Laura Eich:
Okay. One last question for you. Knowing the work that you're doing, knowing the efforts you are putting in with different companies and knowing what you see, because I think you have a pretty broad view of the American workplace in general. What do you hope for the future of the American workplace?
Katrina Ghazarian:
I think historically the majority of the workplace has only made significant change when their backs are against the wall or we've seen legislation and law go into play, and so they're forced to do it. I would like to see employers using this opportunity to provide certain tools and resources to their employees to help them with self-development or developing their levels of consciousness before we are mandated by more law and legislation. So, even in HR, I don't really think some of the laws in California where it's very litigious here, I don't think that it gives us a ton of autonomy as business owners, for example, to allow our employees to make their own schedule.
If you're non-exempt, you basically have to take a meal period before your fifth hour ends, and then let's just say you clock out for a couple hours, but if you come back in on the same day, like there's a stretch hours rule. It just becomes more complicated for us to give the autonomy that we want to give to employees and I do believe it's because of employers who weren't conscious enough to make these changes on their own and so I would love to see employers proactively make changes instead of retroactively making these changes and I think one of them is providing resources for their employees that help them feel secure in their personal life like childcare and things like that.
Laura Eich:
Very cool. I just want to thank you. I know we've gone over on time, so thank you for the extra time and thank you for sharing your heart and your mind. It's a really beautiful combination you've got there of brain and heart going on, so just thank you for sharing that all with us today, Katrina. I really appreciate it.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Oh, you know I love you guys.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, we love you.
Katrina Ghazarian:
I pretty much fly to Detroit and stuff.
Laura Eich:
Casually shows up at our events.
Katrina Ghazarian:
To be with you guys.
Laura Eich:
Just to hang out.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Yeah, and I appreciate what you all are doing as an organization, I would say, that this friendship and partnership, and I feel like I've found some of my people at BIGGBY and it's so great to know that. I think I text Mike this after the conference where I felt like I was on an island by myself having these beliefs and feeling like what I was doing was just me believing in it and then going to the summit, I realized I'm not alone in this and I do have people out there and so you guys are my people.
Laura Eich:
Totally do.
Mike McFall:
And we just have to figure out how to get more people to be our people.
Laura Eich:
We want more people to be our people.
Mike McFall:
That's our quest.
Laura Eich:
That is our quest.
Katrina Ghazarian:
We'll get there.
Laura Eich:
We will. Awesome. Thanks, everybody.
Mike McFall:
Thanks, Katrina. Thank you so much.
Katrina Ghazarian:
Thank you.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, holy smokes. Is that an interview, huh?
Laura Eich:
Right.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. She just goes places I don't. She always goes places I never expect somebody to go, and I really enjoyed the conversation and she was able to take the work that we're so interested in, this love in leadership concept, and take it to powerful places that like the whole spiritual development thing. That's not something that we've ever really talked about so much in terms of our work, but it made sense. It's like we're talking about the whole human being here, and for all of us, it should be a big part of what we're doing.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, within GoDev, I mean, we talk about it as an element of personal vitality, but we don't explicitly call that out when we're talking about embracing growth. We're not just talking about you being better at your job. We're talking about you evolving and becoming more than you might have thought you could be by joining our company. That's one of our hopes and dreams for you, when you join our company, is that you're going to grow in ways that are unexpected, but oh, man. Yeah, I didn't expect to go to that region of conversation at all. That was not part of the plan today. It was beautiful.
Mike McFall:
I know it. I know it. Yeah, and it's interesting to hear her talk about her role within organizations, and she's perfectly cool with if I got to tell people, "My work will make you more money." I'm cool with that as long as you end up bringing me in-
Laura Eich:
Does it well.
Mike McFall:
... and let me work my magic and let me do my thing, and at the end of the day, it's going to make you more money. So, great, and I love the... And by the way, doesn't it just feel good too?
Laura Eich:
Yeah. Yes, and that is the conversation we get into a lot with business leaders is sometimes it can almost feel crass to feel like we have to prove the goodness of what we're trying to do in the world with dollars and cents and stats and data, and we like to just talk about the feel good stuff, but it's both and it has to be both, and Katrina... I mean, like I said, she's my hero, but she thinks a lot in the way I do where it's like if you do the parts that feel good, if you just care for the person, if you care for their spiritual growth, if you meet them where they're at, by the way, you're going to make more money as an obvious outcome, but I can tell you about that first if that's what you'd like to hear. I think that's brilliant.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, I thought that was great, and I really do appreciate... I had a really fascinating conversation with a woman last night. Katrina was talking about it as well around the concept of being a woman in business. It's still very much a thing that we all need to be paying attention to and we need to be talking about it. This woman last night was... I don't know if scolding me is the right term, but she had some real strong opinions around some of my positions, and it's like, "A woman can't do what you're saying, Mike, because if a woman does what you're saying, then she's worried that women are going to get pigeonholed as women." Meaning if a woman comes into the workplace and starts talking about love in leadership and talking about taking care of people and nurturing people and so on, that's going to be perceived as weak if it's a woman. So, it's like, oh God, that's not stuff I think about, but I need to be.
Laura Eich:
Yeah. Oh, man. We could do a whole podcast episode on this topic sometime. That'd be exciting.
Mike McFall:
It would be exciting.
Laura Eich:
Maybe we'll write that down for season two, figure out how to talk about that because it's real. There's a thing. All right. Well, any other thoughts on Katrina other than, "She's fabulous. We love her"?
Mike McFall:
No. No.
Laura Eich:
Okay. Confirmed. The love is confirmed. We might hear more from her again in the future. For those of you listening, if you like what you heard today and you want to hear more podcast episodes from Mike and I, you can go to loveinleadershippodcast.com. If you're interested in learning more about what Mike is up to, go to michaeljmcfall.com. If you want to follow along with the Life You Love Laboratory here at BIGGBY COFFEE, you can follow us on all the social channels at Life You Love Lab. We would love to have you there and join in the conversation. We want to hear from you guys over there. Mike, as always, this was such a pleasure. I love you.
Mike McFall:
Love you too.
Laura Eich:
And everybody else, we will talk to you soon.