When BIGGBY® COFFEE underwent its radical transformation, Nathan Havey was leading the charge. This week on Love in Leadership, we talk with him about his mission and philosophy of conscious capitalism. We also explore the role of anxiety in positive change, how company cultures follow employees home, and much more. Don’t miss this inspiring episode of Love in Leadership.
If You Want to Change the World (featuring Nathan Havey)
Nathan Havey on conscious capitalism, leadership caps, and more
GUEST BIO:
Nathan Havey is on a mission to redefine success in the business world. He's also the mastermind who helped transform BIGGBY® COFFEE into a beacon of conscious capitalism. He's since developed a network of over 65 top-tier consultants worldwide through his work with Conscious Capitalism Inc. Nathan's passion for storytelling shines through in his award-winning film, "Beyond Zero," which has been a hit with heavyweights like KKR, UPS, and academic stalwarts like Yale and the University of Michigan, all using it to champion the expanded game of business.
At the Institute for Corporate Transformation, Nathan co-founded, he's the voice behind the hit podcast series "10 Things You Should Know About Stakeholder Capitalism." He's also the brains behind the Intrapreneur Accelerator, a cutting-edge change leadership program. Nathan's also speaker and trainer, collaborating with visionaries worldwide to create a future where business benefits everyone.
Links:
CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:
[1:57] - Make a Mess First
Make a mess, then clean it up better
Laura discusses the annual planning phase in businesses, likening it “pulling all the clothes out and dumping them on the ground” when you clean your closet out. This represents the discomfort and uncertainty businesses face during strategic planning, emphasizing the emotional and psychological impacts of business processes. It’s uncomfortable when your company’s dirty laundry is dumped on the ground for all to see — because then it has to be dealt with. But this is the beginning of positive transformation.
[3:07] - Anxiety, Stress, and Leadership
The upside to anxiety
Mike and Nathan discuss how anxiety and stress, often seen as challenges to be overcome in leadership, can actually be critical and productive elements in leadership and business. This conversation shifts the perspective on these emotions, suggesting they can be drivers for success and growth. After all, anxiety and stress are often our brain trying to tell us something — and can even give us the critical energy that makes the process of transformation effective and worthwhile.
[9:08] - When Business is More than Business
If you want to change the world, start with companies
Nathan believes that society undervalues the importance of businesses and corporations in positively impacting society. He talks about expanding the role of business beyond traditional metrics to enhance this social aspect further. When we adopt a more holistic view of business in society, it not only increases the potential for transformation — it also puts positive pressure on corporate leaders to do more than just turn a profit.
[21:49] - Your Culture Doesn’t Stop at the Office
Employees take cultures home
We often think about workplace cultures ending outside the workplace. But research shows that your employees take your workplace culture home with them — and, more importantly, into their communities. Workplace environments significantly influence not only employees' professional growth but also their personal lives and community interactions. By fostering positive workplace cultures that emphasize listening and support, businesses can contribute to healthier societal dynamics, even reducing issues like marital stress and improving overall community well-being.
[47:46] - The Dreaded Leadership Cap
What to do when your leaders reach their potential
Nathan introduces us to the idea of 'leadership caps', suggesting that every leader has a limit to their capabilities. When team members reach this cap, they either leave or disengage, highlighting the need for ongoing growth and development in leadership to prevent stagnation and maintain team motivation. Basically, it means that you can’t simply assume leaders will keep growing and developing simply by doing their jobs.
As Nathan says: "If you don't have structures for you to get served that stuff, then you stop growing."
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ABOUT LOVE IN LEADERSHIP:
At the Life You Love LaboratoryTM and BIGGBY® COFFEE, we’re out to prove that financial success and healthy workplace culture aren’t two separate goals. BIGGBY® COFFEE's own cultural transformation is proof that not only is it possible to have a successful company where people aren’t miserable at work, but that the happier your people are, the more your business will grow. Each week, join host Laura Eich, Chief Purpose Officer at BIGGBY® COFFEE, and her co-host and BIGGBY® COFFEE co-CEO Mike McFall as they’re joined by guests from around the world to learn how they are fostering a culture of love and growth in the world’s most innovative and people-centric companies. Get inspired. Get real. Get ready to transform workplace culture in America with us. This is the Love in Leadership podcast.
Learn more at: loveinleadershippodcast.com
ABOUT THE HOSTS:
Mike McFall began his journey with BIGGBY® COFFEE as a minimum-wage barista at the original store in East Lansing in 1996. Over the span of 23 years, alongside business partner Bob Fish, he has helped create one of the great specialty coffee brands in America. Today Mike is co-CEO with Bob, and BIGGBY® COFFEE has over 250 stores open throughout the Midwest that sell tens of thousands of cups of coffee each day. But more importantly to Mike and BIGGBY® COFFEE, the company is a profoundly people-first organization.
Mike is also the author of Grind, a book which focuses on early stage businesses and how to establish positive cash flow.
Laura Eich is BIGGBY® COFFEE’s Chief People Officer, having worked in a variety of roles at BIGGBY® COFFEE for the last 11+ years. She helped launch BOOST, the department at BIGGBY® COFFEE which ultimately became LifeLabTM — BIGGBY® COFFEE’s inhouse culture cultivation team designed to help people be the best versions of themselves and help companies support them along the way. In her role, Laura helps people build lives that they love through the process of building profitable businesses and robust, growth-filled careers.
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As a nod to the past, Detroit Podcast Studios leverages modern versions of Motown’s processes to launch today’s most compelling podcasts. What Motown was to musical artists, Detroit Podcast Studios is to podcast artists today. With over 75 combined years of experience in content development, audio production, music scoring, storytelling, and digital marketing, Detroit Podcast Studios provides full-service development, training, and production capabilities to take podcasts from messy ideas to finely tuned hits.
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Laura Eich:
Welcome to the Love and Leadership Podcast. I'm one of your co-hosts, Laura Eich, and I am of course joined by my other co-host, Mike McFall. Mike, how are you doing?
Mike McFall:
Wonderful.
Laura Eich:
What's on your mind this week?
Mike McFall:
Well, I am super excited about this interview today. Nathan's one of my favorite people in the world, and I can't wait to dive into it. I wish the format of this podcast was like a three to four hour podcast, not a 30, 40, 50 minute podcast, because Nathan, it would be amazing to just sit and record him and revel in his insights and what he brings to the table, but I'm super excited for this one. And what about you?
Laura Eich:
Oh, I mean, I'm so excited to talk to Nathan. He's magic, he's brilliant. His brain is just so big all the time, and everything he brings is so exciting. The thing that has actually been going on in my mind this week that I haven't had the chance to talk to anyone about, and so I'm going to talk to you about it, has been-
Mike McFall:
Oh, here we go.
Laura Eich:
... The bizarre experience, I think this happens in relationships too, but for sure it happens in business, where we go through these phases that we know are coming and yet somehow we are surprised every year when they happen. So around the fourth quarter of any business, you're going to have things around annual planning, strategic planning. I think most businesses do it that way. Maybe they do it in different times of the year. But what that ends up leading to is all of this uncertainty leading up to annual planning where you question everything.
I equate it to something like pulling all the clothes out of the closet before you reorganize the whole closet kind of thing. And so the pre annual fit planning phase is literally pulling all the clothes out and dumping it on the ground, and it makes everyone really uncomfortable because now we're just living in this mess of clothes all over the ground, and then we get to annual planning and it's really challenging. It's difficult. It's difficult to prioritize, difficult to see the future. You hope you make decisions that matter still a year from now. And then we get to the other side of annual planning and you're mostly doing kind of the same things and you're like, "What was I so worried about?" I think that phase action, it's not so much about the actual annual planning thing, but I think the phase thing is an interesting piece of business that we don't necessarily talk about. We don't discuss. I mean, our company has other phases. The pre-BNS phase, our Big Nation Summit, pre-BNS phase is a thing the beginning of the year. January is like its own weird phase. And I think this happens in relationships. I think it happens in business. It's just been on my mind this week.
Mike McFall:
And I think that that is a critical... The anxiety around that is critical energy to make that process work and worthwhile.
Laura Eich:
Right.
Mike McFall:
And so I think that acknowledging that anxiety in that space is actually a productive part of it, I think is great. As long as you understand it and know it. And so I love that you're in that and you're acknowledging it because yes, right. Of course. I think it's supposed to be that way, and I think that that's healthy and you do come out of the other side of it and you move into your next year. If it was all relaxed and there wasn't that anxiety, I'm not sure the outcomes would be powerful.
Laura Eich:
Yeah. I bet there's some actual psychological basis behind that. I think the same thing where I have to be nervous about something for it to go well.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. People say to me, "I mean, at this point of your career, do you still get nervous getting up on stage?" And I'm like, "Oh my God, do I?" Oh, yeah, right.
Laura Eich:
Every time.
Mike McFall:
But it's that anxiety that gives you the energy. And it's interesting you talk about this cycle though, because I wanted that queued up something in my brain about cycles and the cycle of confidence and competence as an individual person. And you're talking about sort of a calendar cycle, which I think is interesting. And there's also a cycle that we go through, and I'm actually in the middle of a down cycle right now, and I know it'll go away. I know that I'm going to live through it and I know I'm going to come out of it, but boy, when you're in these down cycles, they're difficult moments.
And I think I've been through enough of them where I know I'm going to come out of this and I'm not going to be lacking confidence forever, and I'm not going to be in this space of questioning my capability and so on. Man, these are rough moments. And so acknowledging the cycles, whether it be a calendar cycle or sort of an emotional cycle or whatever, acknowledging them and when you're in the down cycles, be okay with it and understand it. It is just part... You can't always be up and confident and rolling. And the calendar does force these moments on you that these cause anxiety and so on.
Laura Eich:
What does the down cycle look like? You said it's like lower confidence than your normal?
Mike McFall:
For me? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. There's probably been some things that have led up to it. I could name a few, but it really is just that I go through these moments where I feel like I'm not doing good work, I'm not engaged the way I should be. Maybe I'm overstepping in areas of the business that I shouldn't be overstepping into. And so yeah, I go through it and I would say it's probably, I get these a couple times a year, something like that. And when you're in them, you got to get through them.
Laura Eich:
So sometime we should have a guest who can explain all of this to us and tell us why this happens in our brains. I bet there's a psychologist or somebody out there who could explain it that would make sense.
Mike McFall:
Who have been studying this and can help us with it. Yeah, I think that'd be a great topic.
Laura Eich:
Noted. Noted for the future, I think we are ready to get to our actual guest today, which is Nathan Havey of Stakeholder Business and a few other things that you'll get the pleasure of hearing about today. Nathan's mind works fast. He talks fast, so you got to listen fast. This might not be one to put on the fast-forward setting to listen through because there's going to be a lot said very, very quickly, but stick around because what Nathan has to bring is really exciting, especially for the future of the business world in America. So let's get into this conversation with Nathan Havey.
Hey, Nathan, how you doing?
Nathan Havey:
Doing great. How are you?
Laura Eich:
Doing well, Mike, you good?
Mike McFall:
I'm great. I'm having my first cup of coffee this morning.
Laura Eich:
Very good.
Mike McFall:
I'm fasting in the morning.
Laura Eich:
You're even fasting from coffee. I didn't realize that. That feels like a shame, honestly, but it's fine. I'm glad you're having some now. Nathan, if you're ready to jump right in, I love to get us kicked off with having you tell us who are you? Where are you from in the world, and what is it that you do?
Nathan Havey:
Sure. My name is Nathan Havey. I am from Denver, Colorado, and I do really one thing, which is trying to help to expand the game of business, to create a world that works for everyone.
Laura Eich:
That's very casual. This is a casual thing that you do there. Can you expand a little? What is it that that means? What is it that you do from week to week, day to day? What does it look like to expand the nature? I didn't get the whole thing. Expand the nature of business?
Nathan Havey:
Expand the game of business to create a world that works for everyone. And so yeah, what I do is I sort of work with CEOs to help to unlearn some of the really unhelpful holdovers that we've kind of got in the business mindset. And when CEOs are doing really, really incredible stuff, I tell their stories through podcasts, and articles, and even documentary films to help to show other CEOs what is possible in business.
Laura Eich:
I love that. How did you... So hit me with some highlights as far as how you got here today, even from what did you go to school for? Where did you start? And how did you end up doing this work today?
Nathan Havey:
Yep. Mine is an unlikely and circuitous story, and so school was at the University of Northern Colorado for theater and political science. I always loved storytelling and acting, but I realized that the job of an actor really is to hope and pray for a Kentucky Fried Chicken commercial. And that just wasn't quite meaningful enough. And so I thought politics. And so I went to eventually get a job in the US Congress and saw a lot there and became very clear that that was not actually going to be my path. I just don't have the patience for it. And so I was not really sure what I would do then. What is the way that you can have a meaningful career and use your life well? And I encountered this book called Confessions of a Radical Industrialist, which was written by Ray Anderson, the founder of Interface.
And in it, he really makes the case that business actually, is the most powerful force on the planet today. Hasn't always been so, but today it is. And so if you want to change the way the world works, changing the way that business works is one of the most powerful levers we have. And so I started doing that 15 years ago and then had a couple of lucky breaks, no formal business training, no formal consulting training, no formal training in film, but I found my way in all three and have been able to do some really neat stuff.
Laura Eich:
What were a couple of those lucky breaks?
Nathan Havey:
Well, interestingly, one of them was going on a camping trip. This is a camping trip on South Manitou Island in probably about, well, October of 2014. And there's a couple of different campsites around a fire ring. And so my wife and I went up to the fire ring and Mr. Mike McFall happened to be sitting around that fire ring. And I started talking about some of these stories about businesses that had expanded what they considered success to be and had really done some remarkable things, and it caught Mike's attention and sparked his passion. And I then became an advisor and a consultant to Biggby for years. And so that was my first real big consulting contract and my first opportunity to really do deep great work with the company. And so that was a great break.
And then another was, because it's actually, I've got the magazine on my bookshelf here, Mike and Bob landed on the cover of that magazine. And other people found that, and Conscious Capitalism asked me to create the Global Consultant certification for how to do consulting in conscious capitalism led 65 or so consultants from all around the world through a year long training in doing that, which was amazing. And then the other big one was I had a chance to finally make a movie about the story that was in that first book that I found that Confessions of a Radical Industrialist. And that movie is called Beyond Zero, and it's now being used in business schools all over the world, and it's being used in corporate boardrooms all over the world to help train business leaders for the right business approach with the right level of ambition for how we can align business interests with the imperative to create a sustainable world environmentally.
Mike McFall:
Well, Nathan, if I can add, meeting you was one of, if not the luckiest break of my life, you and probably Bob Fish. Right?
Nathan Havey:
Well back at you, Mike.
Laura Eich:
Mike. Admittedly, I thought you were going to say and meeting your wife, but we'll sail past that.
Mike McFall:
Well, okay-
Nathan Havey:
Professional life.
Mike McFall:
... I'm definitely-
Laura Eich:
Professional life.
Mike McFall:
... My kids, my wife. I mean, I put all that in a different box.
Laura Eich:
No, I love that. That wasn't actually meant to be a leading question to be like, "Tell me how you got involved with Biggby." But that is really happy that we are considered one of your lucky breaks, especially when stacked up with some of those other giant stories and situations that you found yourself in as well.
Nathan Havey:
It's the thing, Laura, where when you're looking forward, it feels random. It feels happenstantial. But when you look back, you see that each thing had to sort of stack up to lead to the next. And without the work I was able to do with Biggby, there's no way that any of the rest of it would be happening. And so it's an essential part of the journey.
Laura Eich:
You mentioned at the start some of the... You're helping CEOs, especially with some of the unhelpful holdovers from how we were taught to do business. What are some of those unhelpful holdovers that we're still holding onto in the business world?
Nathan Havey:
Well, I think in terms of leadership, the biggest one is that you're hiring people to help you achieve your goals. And that seems like natural, right? Isn't that exactly what we're doing? But the thing is, if you really understand what the employee, all of us are looking for in our own careers, we have our own goals. We have our own hopes, and dreams, and ambitions. And if the leader in the company can create the kind of workplace where it actually is really focused on helping to grow the people that are working there, helping them to feel cared for, supported, that's the ideal environment for then that team to perform well. And so there's no trade-off between the leader helping the team to grow and reach their goals, and the team helping the leader or the company to perform on the things that matter most to them. It's just that so many leaders are trained to be myopically focused around efficiency, productivity, and they don't really understand the humanity that makes efficiency and productivity happen. And so there's all of these things that people have been trained to do as managers that are inconsistent with what humans need to thrive. And it's really the mismatch in a lot of those things that causes incredible harm in the workplace, human speaking, but then it also frustrates the performance that we think these things are supposed to do. So we just really have it backward.
Mike McFall:
And I might even posit that the performance of the organization will... In the environment you are advocating, the performance of the organization will exceed the performance of any organization working from the traditional confines of leadership.
Nathan Havey:
That's right. And that's actually documented. That's not a matter of opinion. They've got a couple of different books. So my favorite one is called Multipliers. And so this is a case study of the way that they did this within the Oracle corp-
Nathan Havey:
... so this is a case study of the way that they did this within the Oracle Corporation, and they actually found that teams performed a hundred percent better when they're working for somebody like what they would call a multiplier leader. So there's a 2X performance advantage for companies that get this right.
Laura Eich:
So I think, I mean, sometimes I'm blinded because I work for Biggby Coffee and we've been in this world, in this work for a long time, but I think there's times where it feels natural, even though I'm pretty sure it's unnatural, but it feels natural to want to focus on the efficiency, get the work done, "Let's go. We still have to maintain a budget. We still have to be profitable. We still have to do this." And that can almost get louder than the "Got to care for my people. Make sure they're all achieving their goals. Make sure everyone's safe and cared for and all of these things." How do we unlearn that almost default setting is I guess maybe more true than natural? How do we unlearn that?
Nathan Havey:
I think there's, unfortunately, generational learning on this because almost everybody has come up in a work environment that was an example of the ways that aren't super effective. And I actually want to flip this into a different realm, but it's just the same, in parenting. A lot of the parenting literature that's out there right now really talks about the need for patience and listening and having the kids feel heard and understood. Any parent that has been manically trying to get their kids out the door to get to school in time when there's an upset, it's self-defeating. It's just self-defeating if there's something underlying that isn't there. You can literally pick them up and put them in the car, which I confess to doing on occasion, but it then takes longer to be able to handle the emotional upset and a lot of those kinds of things. And adults are actually no different. We're just better at coping.
So the literature on this though is only a generation and a half old, and we've been parenting kids for forever. And at least in the modern Western context, if you look at what was sort of acceptable and normal and expected three generations ago in terms of discipline, in terms of the way that you were to be as a kid, the way you were to be as an adult, we still have all of this baked into the way that we were raised, the way that our parents were raised, the way our grandparents were raised. It is this massive shift that is starting to happen. And the same is true in workplace management. I think that once you've been in a workplace that operates the other way, you really get it, you really understand what it is, and it's really hard to go back. But if you've never been in it, it's not something you really get from books. It really is kind of this experiential thing.
So I think that's really what Life Lab is trying to do, is really give people the experience of what it's like to be in a workplace like that. We mess up all the time. We're not perfect. But there's opportunity in that too, because when you mess up, taking the time to clean it up and rebuild the trust and all that kind of stuff, that's one of the core principles that it takes a minute, but boy, is it worth it when you look at the impact that it creates for performance.
So to your question, Laura, about we got to make the budget, we got to make our numbers, we got to get the work done, we're not not doing that. We absolutely are. We just are figuring out that the better way to do that is when the people feel cared for. And it's not just saying nice things. There's a lot that really goes into this to sort of prove it. And when you do that, people will give what's called their discretionary effort, which is where that 2X performance advantage comes from. And you find you get more work done more efficiently. You hit the budgets better. So it's counterintuitive in the traditional mindset, but there's this other way to look at it that reveals real potential for innovation and performance.
Mike McFall:
Well, I think the thing that we learned, and Nathan, you helped us learn, was there's really two pieces that I think are fundamental to getting this started in a workplace that doesn't have it already. I think that the first one is the concept that the employee-employer relationship, we can't look at it as a transaction. When we look at it as a transaction, that's when it becomes unhealthy. I am paying you to show up to do these services, and frankly, do them, go home, and don't worry about what it felt like or what it was like to be here with your team. So that's point one. The other one that I think that really changed my thinking on this is the power of supporting people and showing up to work as their authentic selves and being supportive and okay with that. So to me, those were two really fundamental pieces to moving away from the traditional mindset of employment to the mindset that you're talking about, which is a loving, supportive, nurturing environment where people are expected to thrive and grow.
Nathan Havey:
I think the one thing I'd add to that, I absolutely resonate with it, and just to return to this notion of the expanded game of business. So far we've talked about this in terms of the limited game of business, which is why it's actually better for the company to be able to do this stuff. But if you look at what happens when those folks go home and you look at the impact on them and their life if they're in a workplace that feels demoralizing, the way you are with your spouse and your kids and your propensity for road rage, just how you are out there in the community, versus in these other kinds of workplaces, there is a dramatic wake for both of those things. In one case, it's a pretty negative wake that has a lot of bad externalities in the community, and in the other case, it can be a very positive wake.
So the question I think that a lot of CEOs need to think about is, what game are we playing here? What is winning? And if winning is the limited game of business, which is make money, grow, all the traditional business things, then there's a certain sphere of concern. But I think that if you go back to the actual reason that business is business, the whole notion of capitalism is that we're going to allow free markets to meet the needs of humanity. So what are the needs? What would it look like if we actually did that really, really well? And I would suggest that a thriving community where people have enough, where they're thriving, where there's prosperity, which isn't just financial, it is financial, but it's more than that.
So if that's the game, if a business exists to make a positive dent in their community on those terms, I would argue that's the expanded game of business. And it's totally consistent with the limited game. It's just you're winning on a larger, more expanded scoreboard. And if we are able to get companies to do that at scale, I think that we actually see dramatically improved results, that it opens up the possibility for the next great leap forward for humanity.
Laura Eich:
That was major.
Mike McFall:
Love that.
Laura Eich:
That was so good.
Mike McFall:
I love that. What I talk about is, instead of going home and going to the bar and grabbing a bottle or a gummy, you go home and you roll on the floor with your pets or your kids. That's the sort of image that I capture around that sentiment.
Nathan Havey:
Well, and just to put one anecdote on that, there's a company that we've studied at BIGGBY. It's an incredible case study. It's called Barry-Wehmiller, and the book on this is called Everybody Matters. They really focus on listening as the core skill that they believe really improves people's ability to communicate, to collaborate, to understand, to resolve conflict, to innovate. So they just really double down on teaching everybody in their company how to deeply truly listen, which is something that most folks have never actually been trained in that. So they actually have data where they show that when people in ... This is largely blue collar manufacturing companies, but when they go through this, the rate of divorces among the staff actually go way down because people are, they're better spouses. They're able to connect and be vulnerable and handle the things that are the challenges in every marriage more effectively. So it's not just this wooly concept that this stuff might happen. No, it does happen. This is the frontier of what business is really about.
Mike McFall:
And I would argue it's about what leadership is about.
Nathan Havey:
I agree. I agree.
Mike McFall:
So it's about effective leaders in the world, whether you're working at a university or within government or within a corporation, leading teams of people this way has the impact you're talking about. And I love that we're in the space, because it's our space of corporate America or business, of course it is, right? But really what you're talking about, in my opinion, is effective leadership.
Nathan Havey:
That's correct. And I would just say that there's nothing special about these dynamics in the for-profit world of business.
Mike McFall:
Correct, correct.
Nathan Havey:
It's the same dynamics in nonprofit, in government, in any human organization. There are these dynamics present. If you are working with human beings, these are the lessons that need to be learned and the opportunities that can accrue.
Laura Eich:
So sometimes I think when we talk about this stuff, and Mike, you might want to weigh in on this too, potentially, because I think you've encountered this question that I'm going to get to, sometimes when we're talking about it, it sounds like if I'm someone pursuing employment somewhere and I find one of these companies where they're saying, "We're doing things differently, we're focused on listening, we're focused on keeping you whole and cared for and loved," and then they get to work and they feel all that, but they also find out that it's super, super stressful and there's endless amount of actual work to do. I mean, there's still the occasional struggling leader within that organization and they might work for that leader and that kind of thing. What do we do with that? What do we do with, there's an employment expectation that joining one of these companies is going to be like the utopia of stress-free paychecks or something like that? How do we take that on? What do we do with that?
Nathan Havey:
Well, just to weigh in, I've been looking for years and years and years, and I've yet to find a company that is without dysfunction and stress and all that kind of stuff. In fact, I've yet to find a human organization of any kind that is that way. So I think that it's a little bit of a fallacy to look at places where a company fails to hit the mark and say they're not that, they're not doing that. There's a great analogy of the Apollo missions to the moon. I believe that the actual spacecraft was off course. Something more than 90% of the journey, it was off course, but they did it by making small adjustments to correct where they were off course constantly.
So as metaphor, there's never a day in an organization where there isn't something that happens that's off of this. And that is the human condition at this point in our evolution, that is how we roll. And that's not evidence that it's not happening. It's not evidence that it's wrong. It's just how it is. It's how the journey looks. The key skill to build into the leaders and into the culture is being able to acknowledge and respond to those things in healthy ways. And that's it. That's the ballgame. The faster you do that and the faster the loop goes, the less off course you get. The faster you make the corrections, the less energy goes into course correcting. So just to use that metaphor, it's a muscle, it's an individual muscle for leaders, and it's a cultural muscle for organizations. And continuing to practice and train, it works like anything else, you eventually can become world-class, but it takes time and effort.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. And I think that for me, the organizations that are powerful in the world are up to really epic shit, the kind of stuff that you're like, "Holy smoke." And you can expect those environments to be stress-free. I mean, there is so much going on. We have all kinds of variables and things that are happening. And I don't know why this hit me, but Nathan, you said something to me in the last year that was so powerful, and it was that, "But being part of this organization, your obituary will be written about the work you did here." And that to me is like, that makes all the stress go away because it's like powerful work. You're in it. It's not about the limited opportunity of making the shareholders of the company wealthier.
So it's about your engagement as well. And I do think that that helps, I'm not sure mitigate the stress, but make the stress more manageable, more meaningful. When you're stressed out, you know you're doing it for this particular reason. And that's this whole concept of a purpose-led company. And we hear that term so often, and I think so few people understand what that means. So Nathan, I would love to get your wisdom around the power of purpose and why it's so important.
Nathan Havey:
Totally. And I think that this is a critical piece, Mike, because I think that companies can strive to sort of have this incredible culture, and there's tremendous gains that can come from that at any point. Even individual leaders trying to do it, there's so many upsides. It's really, really great. However, if the company isn't also engaged in something that's kind of like what you're describing, it can get a little bit navel-gazy, if that's a term I can use, where it's just there's so much self-reflection and there's so much digesting and nitpicking and all kinds of stuff like that outside of a context of why it is we're doing this, what it is we're really trying to achieve. There's a shadow side to it. So I believe that what we've articulated so far about-
Nathan Havey:
I believe that what we've articulated so far about what you're trying to do for your employees and the kinds of culture that you can set up has to be matched with what you're referring to here. And there's a couple of different languages for this that are fun. I was just on the phone with some folks that are leading this charge in Australia last night, and the phrase that they use is having a purpose worth having.
Mike McFall:
I love that.
Nathan Havey:
And the way that I've said it in the past is that you're solving a worthy problem. And what's worthy? You tell me. We're going to spend about half of our waking adult lives in our place of work. It is one of the biggest parts of our time on the planet. What's worth that? What's worth that? And that's an individual consideration. And on the individual level, the other language for this is because of the negativity bias in the human mind, the way that we've evolved, I don't know. Maybe at an absolute mastery of zen or something like that, you can actually get to a place where you don't have problems. But for most of us, mere mortals, life is problems. It's one thing after another that is like, "Ah, I need to fix that. I need to do this." And it's all problems, and so there isn't a point where you don't have stress and you don't have problems. You always will. It's part of the human condition.
The key to it is choosing problems that are worth your time, and that's an individual consideration for people. What is worth my time? And I will say that there's some privilege inherent in this conversation because when we look at, oh, I'm going to choose from a bunch of different jobs based on the one that speaks to me most, well, congratulations if you're in a position to be able to be there. I fortunately am. That was the way that I grew up. But for a lot of folks, it's like, I'll take any job because the problem I'm working on is being able to provide for my family. And you know what? That's a worthy problem. Being able to be the person who makes it better for the next generation, that's worthy. And so for a lot of people, that's the context. And if that's the context, sometimes these highfalutin corporate purpose statements and all that kind of stuff, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just need a steady paycheck and I need enough money."
And so making sure that you're able to actually provide the tangible important things is a personal thing. And so translating this for the individuals that are in the company and making sure that they're able to satisfy their worthy purpose, their thing, that's part of it. But then for the team to be working together on something that is worthy, there's just magic in that. And the companies that are able to do it, in the limited game of business, it pays dividends in terms of retention, in terms of recruitment, in terms of engagement, innovation. We can cite all the research on this. But in the expanded game of business, it also solves major challenges that humanity has to be able to solve.
And again, in the expanded game, if a company can get up to something like that, it changes the context of what it's all for. And so yes, there will be stress. In some cases, that's a really good thing for folks. I think that the notion of just kicking back on a beach chair with umbrella drink, as nice as that sounds, I think that most of us would get bored after two or three weeks of that and be looking for something to do, and so it is part of our nature.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. I think it might be two or three hours for you, Nathan, but if I can tear down a couple of different paths here. One, I was going to make it through our annual meeting this year without crying. I was. And I was committed to it, because I bawled like a baby last year. And then when Paula Thompson mentioned that her mom, through her work, changed the trajectory of their entire family, I busted out again. And I love that. And so I understand that this is an important topic. And so what I wanted to have you talk about was hygiene factors, because in many ways, I think this is what we're talking about here. And explain them and then explain the importance of them.
Nathan Havey:
For sure. And so this is a research study that sort of divides some of this inspirational stuff that we've been talking about as motivation factors. And so there's this opportunity to really motivate people by having a worthy purpose, by creating a culture that's going to help them grow, by having them feel really cared about. All of those things are really, really wonderful motivators, and it's attractive to just dive right into that kind of stuff as a leader and try to make that happen. However, there's this other side of the coin, which is this thing called hygiene factors. And hygiene factors, if you think about it in terms of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. At the base of that pyramid, there's things like basic safety, and that would include financial security, making sure that you have what you need to meet your basic needs. And in the United States of America, 44% of people, so almost half of the country, is in a situation where an unanticipated $400 expense would be something that they could not afford.
And so then you're talking about not making rent, not doing car repairs, not paying for medication, maybe skimping on food in order to do that. And so that's an example of a hygiene factor. And so if you're there and you are making the wage at your job that has you in that situation, and then the CEO, who's probably making a lot more than that, comes up and talks about some great culture or great higher purpose, one could understand why there'd be a little bit of skepticism, if not resentment, for that kind of talk. And so there are several hygiene factors that companies really need to pay attention to. It's table stakes. If you're not at least doing this kind of stuff, then your efforts at higher purpose and some of the softer side of culture stuff, it's going to get really frustrated.
So things like basic salary and financial security, that's a hygiene factor. If there are actual safety concerns at work, that's a hygiene factor. If the nature of the job is taking you away from your family and causing stress like that just based on the hours involved or the commute involved or things like that, that's a hygiene factor. And so the place to start for most companies is very much looking at these hygiene factors. I think it's very helpful to do it in relief to a purpose that they're trying to go after. But oftentimes in declaring the purpose, the first thing to do is then have a hard look in the mirror, then take a look at those hygiene factors and see where your wake is now as you do your business. And so that's not just for your employees, but the ambitious companies will take a look at their supply chain, they'll take a look at their vendor relationships, they'll take a look at their impacts on all their different stakeholders to try to make sure that their hygiene factors are at least neutral.
And so the other very important piece, last piece, is that once the hygiene factor is neutral, once it's okay, then more investment in that hygiene factor doesn't actually cross the line into more motivation. So once people have enough money, once they feel that they're compensated fairly, then a big raise actually doesn't translate to more motivation or engagement or the discretionary effort. Then it's more on the side of meaning and on the other stuff, and so that's how those dynamics function. And unfortunately, there's not really great understanding of that in a lot of companies, and so it trips a lot of folks up as they're trying to move in this way.
Laura Eich:
Nathan, I was finding myself wondering, technically I think you work with a lot of workplaces, but you actually work in a couple of workplaces, I think would be the best way to describe that. And I'm wondering if there are real tangible, likely progressive things that you do within those workplaces, both to care for hygiene factors, motivation factors, to make sure that you are living out what you coach everybody else on.
Nathan Havey:
Totally. And thank you, Laura. So I'm weird. So I do operate in the space between several workplaces. And the one that I'll talk about is a company that I co-founded this summer with a couple of partners that are also great leaders in this space, and it's called Stakeholder Business. And we as three co-founders understand that one of the most important things that we have to do together is really be able to model this behavior for each other because if we are not living it, even if it's not apparent, people can feel it. There's this metaphor. I forget where I got this one. But they say that the further up a chain of command a leader is, it's almost like the phenomenon where you've got a magnifying glass in the sunlight, and it's almost like a focal lens.
And so the way that that leader is, their flaws and their talents, get magnified. And the further you are, the more you feel it, even if you can't directly tie it back to that leader. And so the amount of intentionality and work that a leader has to be able to do to get this stuff right gets exponentially greater as the organization grows. And so this whole notion that there's one leader, it's almost impossible. It's almost impossible for a single human to be able to do it. And so more and more, this notion of co-leadership, this notion of having a leader that really effectively leads a team and that it's not one decider at the top, but you're able to then maximize the talents and minimize the weaknesses of the whole team because the team is working together. And so that's the thing that we're really focused on.
And if I can share one anecdote, we have a community for CEOs that really want to learn this stuff. We just did our first big retreat where we took folks for a few days to go study a major case study, and then we immediately asked, "What is the feedback? How did that go?" And we really wanted people to be very pointed about what the feedback was. And so some people cursorily will do this, but we also really asked some important questions about, "What about us as leaders? What about us as people? Was there anything that we could have done better that should have been different or whatever?" And we got some really good feedback that now has sparked days of real deep introspective conversation between the three of us about what this means for our values, about how we need to grow into the leadership roles that we've got.
And I think the structure that I want to point out, Laura, is that for so many CEO, they are so flat out busy that the idea of taking the time to do that kind of reflection, that kind of collaborative debating between the leadership team about the way they are in certain situations and the things they do that might be frustrating their ambitions, in the normal corporate structure, there just isn't the time for that kind of stuff. And the thing that we do that I think makes a bigger difference than anything else is we're just very, very careful about the capacity, what we commit to, so that there is the time for us to really be able to have hours-long conversations when needed to be able to really unpack that stuff. And I think that if there's a leader that has not set up their world to be able to do that, that right there is the first order of business for them.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, and I would just add to that. Bob and I are in a co-management situation, and we have been for a very long time. And the thing that it allows you to do is when you're "the" leader, your world is so warped because everybody in your world laughs harder at your jokes, tells you your ideas are brilliant and so on and so forth. And very few people, very few people, in that traditional structure are willing to bring that leader the feedback they need where Bob and I will have conversations like, "You know what you did there was bullshit? Like, bullshit? And I'm telling you right now, that behavior's not going to work." And that goes both ways. I'm telling you, that shit goes both ways for us.
And that's what you guys are experiencing right now. And if there was one leader in your group, you wouldn't have that dynamic. It's one of the number one questions I get asked in the world. "So Mike, really tell me about this co-CEO thing. Is it really real? That can't work, right?" And I'm telling you, it is so effective.
Laura Eich:
Have you guys had to overcome any challenges? I know you said this was somewhat recently founded, but have you overcome any, "Oh, that's not going to work. How we're doing this right now is not going to work like this. We need to change course, change behavior, change path." Nathan, have you had anything like that yet?
Nathan Havey:
Yeah, the instance I was just referencing. And I'll just say that one of our co-founders had been the sole leader of their previous organization. And so I think I can say this, the actual thing that they said in one of these conversations was, "I'm not used to being wrong. I'm not used to making a mistake." And so just this ability to really take a look at it, and to that person's absolute credit, it takes something to be willing to be vulnerable like that and to ask your co-leaders, "Hey, boy, this was a blind spot. I did not know that that impact had accrued. Here's where I was, but obviously that's not right. I need your support to figure out just how to reset." And so the acronym that we use for these sorts of moments is an AFOG, another opportunity for growth. You can insert your favorite F word there, but that's the context on this is that it's embarrassing. It brings up shame, it brings up guilt, it brings up all kinds of stuff. But if you don't have structures for you to get served that stuff, then you stop growing.
And then the last little thing on this, Laura, is that there's this dynamic that I like to use to explain this, which is that everybody, all of us, are operating under our own leadership cap. It is the place that we have developed to this point. And whoever you are, wherever you-
Nathan Havey:
... to this point, and whoever you are, wherever you are, you've got a cap. We all do. And investing in the kinds of experiences that help you to grow the cap is one of the most important things for leaders to do because if you don't, then the people that you lead will eventually bump up against your cap. When they do, they're left with two choices. Either they quit and leave or they quit and stay. And so if they quit and stay, that's what disengagement looks like. It only takes a couple of times hitting the cap for people to decide, oh, well, I guess I'll just do my job and wait for them to tell me if they want anything different. The Gallup statistics on this right now are that about two thirds of the American workforce are under somebody's cap, and they have chosen to quit and stay.
Laura Eich:
All right. We're running low on time and I want to be respectful of your time especially. So I have just a couple more questions for you real quick. First one is giant, which is what do you see as the future of the American workplace?
Nathan Havey:
If you look at the way that our society is designed, the structure that we created to try to help educate folks so that they can be functional citizens in our society is K through 12 education. We invested in that very, very early, even pre-America, but that is one of the most profound structures in our society and in modern society. The notion that you have schools, public schools, so that everybody is even required to go and learn certain basic things so that they can understand the ways of our society and how to function well within it. However, the kinds of things beyond reading, writing, arithmetic, that actually help people to be functional and successful in society today, the kinds of emotional intelligence things, they're the kinds of stuff that we're talking about with this leadership stuff. That's not yet baked into any system in society to really help people to make those gains, and the absence of it rears its head everywhere that you look in modern society right now.
We are as a society bumping up against a collective cap that is constraining our next great leap forward. And so could it be that in K-12 education, we start to do that stuff perhaps, but the rate and pace of change there is quite slow. So eventually it will get there. But the actual opportunity that I see in society today is that the workplace itself is the ideal place for people to have this kind of experience and have this kind of education and be able to do this work. It's good for business and it's even better for people. And so as more workplaces become this way, I think that it's amazing. Because if you look at the alternative structure, it'd be things like therapy, things like other continuing education as adults. There's all kinds of weekend courses and classes that people can go do, but they're expensive and time-consuming and it's just a weekend.
But if the workplace could become this, you could see in one generation, maybe even in a decade, a dramatic shift in our ability as humans in society to be able to work effectively with each other. I guess, Laura, I don't think that that's the future like it's going to happen, but it's the future we need to make happen. And so that's part of the expanded game of business, and I think that that's what y'all are up to as well.
Laura Eich:
And then one more question for you if you're up for it. So you started today by talking about how changing the world starts with changing how business works. I imagine there's at least one person listening who's either a CEO or someone right in the middle of their company or another C-suite member, or just someone who's eager to make change happen, to make change happen in their organization. Can you give them a starting point? Where do they start?
Nathan Havey:
I mean, if you look at models of behavior change, we start with awareness and then we move to knowledge and then we move to experience. So depending on where they are, I think that you can look at what the next step is. If this is new and attractive, there's a couple of books that I would suggest picking up. If you're a book person, Conscious Capitalism is excellent. The leadership piece, again, that multipliers is great, easy read. Those are a couple of easy starting places. If you're not a book person, the podcast, other episodes of this podcast and then the 10 Things You Should Know About Stakeholder Capitalism is something that we built about four years ago for this purpose. That's great. If you're a film person, the movie Beyond Zero, it's an environmental telling of this story, but it shows you the building blocks.
Then if you're already very aware and you're looking for tangibly how do you do this stuff, there's a lot of resources that are out there. I guess reach out to LifeLab. Y'all have great resources to help people start their journey on this. I can help, again, with those sixty-four consultants from all around the world. All of them are good at a piece of the beginning of this, so it does not have to be hugely expensive, but a support structure like that is great.
And if you're already past all of that and we're into like, no, I really, really want to get good at this, then I'd suggest find a community of other CEOs that are engaged in the same game. There's just three places they exist that I know of. Conscious Capitalism, they have a big CEO summit in the fall every year that attracts 150, 200 people that are trying to play this game. The Benefit Corporation Movement is chock-full of people that are doing various parts of this, and then in Stakeholder Business, our organization, our membership group is very much focused on this as well. And so that would be just the next steps that I'd recommend, depending on where people are.
Laura Eich:
Awesome. Sounds like the main thing is you don't have to feel alone. You don't have to figure this all out on your own. You can read, you can listen, you can watch, you can reach out, you can email, you can join groups. I love that so much.
Nathan Havey:
And Laura, we'll say that just 20 years ago, you did have to figure this out alone, right?
Laura Eich:
Hmm.
Nathan Havey:
But there are plenty of people that started 20 years ago that have learned tremendous lessons, and so it is not necessary for companies to sort of metaphorically hack through the underbrush on this one. There are trails, not roads yet, but there are trails to follow.
Laura Eich:
That's awesome. If people do want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?
Nathan Havey:
My email is nathan.havey@gmail.com, and that's Havey like Harvey without the R.
Laura Eich:
Right, which lots of people... I feel like Nathan Harvey must get a lot of emails of people trying to reach you in the world because I know I've seen that.
Nathan Havey:
I need to meet Nathan Harvey at some point and apologize, but yes, I agree. Yes.
Laura Eich:
Amazing. Thank you so much, Nathan. This was so fun. It flew by. I think we could probably talk to you for a few more hours and not even break a sweat. So thank you so much for your friendship and your counsel and chatting with us for this time. This was so cool.
Nathan Havey:
Well, Mike and Laura, thank you for all of your incredible work in the world. It's an honor to be able to be here with you.
Mike McFall:
Nathan.
Nathan Havey:
Sir.
Mike McFall:
I love you. You're amazing.
Nathan Havey:
Love you too, Mike.
Laura Eich:
That is exactly the magic that I expected from Nathan Havey. He's just so cool to talk to. I'm actually very proud of us for keeping that somewhat short because we really could have talked for a long time with Nathan, I think.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, when I'm with him and he's in that mode, I feel like I'm just absorbing magic. I really do. And I wanted to ask him for permission to just basically go on podcasts and say exactly what he says, which probably isn't fair, but yeah, it was amazing. What stood out for you? What was something that you're going to walk away with?
Laura Eich:
Yeah, so I think the concept of the expanded game of business and how it doesn't negate the traditional business metrics, it doesn't forget the traditional business ideas or ideals even. It just includes them and expands them or improves the impact of them or what have you. I think that whole concept is something that every leader should not just get excited about but actually be hungry for, because we're saying you can do more. You can do more for the world, you can do more for the business. You can simply do more with business than if you play the limited game.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, I think that if you want to blow the traditional metrics of your business out of the water, then this is the kind of work you need to be doing, and that's so powerful. Then the next statement which he made, which was, that works for everyone. So the expanded game of business that works for everyone. To me, everyone that includes your children at home, it includes your community, it includes the barista that you walk into in the morning to get a cup of coffee from. And so when you're talking about the expanded game of business that works for everyone, when you leave work in an environment that he's advocating and he's talking about and that we're advocating and talking about, you go home and instead of reaching for pouring yourself a drink, you roll around the floor with your dog. And then when you engage, you go to the PTO meeting that night, you're inspired and you're fired up as opposed to exhausted and fried out. This is the expanded game that we're talking about, and to me, it's everything. It's what makes all of this work meaningful.
Laura Eich:
Yeah, I just sort of imagine how that keeps going and how when I get done with a good work day, one of those really satisfying work days where I've done something productive and meaningful and helped somebody and felt like I made a positive impact, and then I go and leave the work day, I am a better human with whoever I interact with. With my husband, with the person at the Kroger checkout, whoever it is, I'm a better person, and hopefully then I'm passing that goodness, that good feeling along to them, and hopefully then they can absorb some of that and passed along to someone else. It just seems like it just keeps going. Is that what stood out to you too?
Mike McFall:
Yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, that was the point I was trying to make, and I think that the ripple effect is dramatic.
Laura Eich:
So I think to sum things up for us today, there's change happening in the world. There are businesses doing this. You don't have to do it alone. If you are feeling the need to make change happen, there are resources out there to get connected with people like Nathan and people in the world of Conscious Capitalism and Stakeholder Business that can partner with you and everything like that. Of course, you can also keep listening to our podcast because this is the kind of stuff that we talk about every week. So if you enjoy this and you want to follow along, you can find us at loveandleadershippodcast.com or follow us on any of the podcast platforms that are out there. Of course, you can also find us on Instagram or TikTok at Life You Love Lab, and we'd love to have you there. I think that's it for today, Mike.
Mike McFall:
Thanks Laura. Love you.
Laura Eich:
Love you too. Thanks everybody for listening, and we will see you next time.