In this episode of Love and Leadership, we dive deep with Caitlin Townsend Lamb from Cascade Engineering, exploring the corners of personal motivation, leadership, and the transformative power of understanding what drives us. Caitlin shares her unique insights on everything from the unexpected perks of bad weather and the surprising downsides of unlimited vacation, to the importance of creating an inclusive workplace that actively tackles anti-racism.
Start Running & Keep Running (featuring Caitlin Townsend Lamb)
Discussions on where inspiration meets discipline
GUEST BIO:
Caitlin Townsend Lamb is the Director of People Advancement and Continuous Improvement Systems at Cascade Engineering, where she has dedicated over 14 years to putting people first. Starting her journey as an executive assistant, Caitlin has gone on to play a pivotal role in developing employee engagement methods that have transformed her organization. She’s an incredible example of treating people as the focus of our organizations, not profits.
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CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:
[1:31] - The Power of Personal Motivation
Internal is Better than External
The team discusses their experiences and insights on the importance of understanding our unique personal motivations. Discovering what drives us is how to determine what will make us feel alive. It pushes us to pursue our goals, and it has a massive impact on our interactions with others. The discussion revolves around the idea that recognizing and nurturing our internal drives is essential for personal growth and fulfillment.
[5:09] - Discipline & Inspiration: Perfect Partners
Creativity and Structure Can Coexist
Caitlin explores the relationship between discipline and inspiration, using her experience with running as a powerful example. She suggests that inspiration can often follow the establishment of discipline, highlighting how committing to a routine, such as a consistent running habit, can lead to a deeper sense of accomplishment and connection to your goals. Too often we expect things to move in the other direction — we wait for inspiration to give us the motivation to act. In fact, it’s often the opposite.
[7:02] - Unlimited Vacation Isn’t for Everyone
Navigating the Structure and Freedom Balance
Who would ever think that an unlimited vacation policy would be a bad thing? A discussion on the unexpected challenges of an unlimited vacation policy reveals the diverse needs and motivations of employees, even when it comes to things you might not anticipate causing challenges. Caitlin recounts a memorable interaction with a team member who thrived on the structure provided by traditional vacation policies, showing how even well-intentioned policies need to be flexible and considerate of individual preferences and work styles. We have to know the people we work with before we can try to serve them.
[17:01] - Getting Proactive About Social Justice
Building an Inclusive Workplace Culture
Caitlin describes Cascade Engineering's longstanding commitment to creating an inclusive workplace by actively engaging in anti-racism work. This involves fostering open dialogues around bias, privilege, and systemic racism, with the aim of continuous learning and improvement. The initiative isn’t a one-off effort or “token” program — it’s an integral part of the company's culture.
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At the Life You Love LaboratoryTM and BIGGBY® COFFEE, we’re out to prove that financial success and healthy workplace culture aren’t two separate goals. BIGGBY® COFFEE's own cultural transformation is proof that not only is it possible to have a successful company where people aren’t miserable at work, but that the happier your people are, the more your business will grow. Each week, join host Laura Eich, Chief Purpose Officer at BIGGBY® COFFEE, and her co-host and BIGGBY® COFFEE co-CEO Mike McFall as they’re joined by guests from around the world to learn how they are fostering a culture of love and growth in the world’s most innovative and people-centric companies. Get inspired. Get real. Get ready to transform workplace culture in America with us. This is the Love in Leadership podcast.
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Mike McFall began his journey with BIGGBY® COFFEE as a minimum-wage barista at the original store in East Lansing in 1996. Over the span of 23 years, alongside business partner Bob Fish, he has helped create one of the great specialty coffee brands in America. Today Mike is co-CEO with Bob, and BIGGBY® COFFEE has over 250 stores open throughout the Midwest that sell tens of thousands of cups of coffee each day. But more importantly to Mike and BIGGBY® COFFEE, the company is a profoundly people-first organization.
Mike is also the author of Grind, a book which focuses on early stage businesses and how to establish positive cash flow.
Laura Eich is BIGGBY® COFFEE’s Chief People Officer, having worked in a variety of roles at BIGGBY® COFFEE for the last 11+ years. She helped launch BOOST, the department at BIGGBY® COFFEE which ultimately became LifeLabTM — BIGGBY® COFFEE’s inhouse culture cultivation team designed to help people be the best versions of themselves and help companies support them along the way. In her role, Laura helps people build lives that they love through the process of building profitable businesses and robust, growth-filled careers.
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Laura:
Welcome to the Love in Leadership Podcast. This is Laura. I'm joined as always by my lovely co-host, Mike McFall. Lovely, favorite, sparkly, beautiful human being.
Mike McFall:
Wow. I'm going with it. I'm not sure I've ever been called lovely before, Laura. I appreciate that. Sounds like standard lingo in your world that you're using with me, which-
Laura:
It's standard.
Mike McFall:
... I'm going with it. So what's going on? You good?
Laura:
But I mean it.
Mike McFall:
Oh, no, I understand.
Laura:
I'm good.
Mike McFall:
Yeah?
Laura:
I'm good. It's a very rainy day here in Michigan, so it's been like night since this morning, and it's 3:00 in the afternoon. So I wouldn't mind some sunshine, but things are okay.
Mike McFall:
I've never been affected-
Laura:
What about you?
Mike McFall:
Well, so I mean, just on that little topic there, the weather, which is not that interesting most often, but I've never been impacted by the weather emotionally, and I just never have. And I know a lot of people do and can be it's a dramatic thing. But for me, actually bad weather I like because somehow it makes me focus. I don't want to be outside. I don't want to go do other stuff. It's cool. I feel like I'm in a little bubble here in my office or at home where I can't go outside and do anything. So I get to enjoy being productive at my house.
Laura:
Yeah, that's fair.
Mike McFall:
I had an-
Laura:
I just like to look at sunshine and birds and stuff.
Mike McFall:
I guess I don't do that, really.
Laura:
That's fine.
Mike McFall:
So I had an experience yesterday, and it was really cool. I had the opportunity to speak in front of a group. It was a Chamber group down in Southeast Detroit. The thing about this group that was interesting was that normally these events you go to, and it's just business leaders or managers, whatever, adults. Adults. Well, this group specifically invites and encourages for high school students to come to these, they call them forums, open forums. And they bring in a speaker and then they do a Q&A and so on. And I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed the fact that they made that an opportunity for the students. And what an opportunity for the adults to hear from the students too.
And one of the things that I got asked a question about what motivates me? I think it was one of the students that asked, why am I, quote, "so motivated?" Why do I have such a drive to do things? I wake up in the morning fully charged, going at it pretty hard every single day. And I think that this student was wrestling with some laziness-ish in their mind, or that's what I made up. Okay. Let me say it that way. I made up that they don't feel that. And I think understanding what motivates us is really a very important part of our relationship to the world and to each other.
Laura:
Yeah, totally.
Mike McFall:
And anyway, so that's been top of mind for me today. I've been sort of swirling around why I might be motivated or why other people perceive-
Laura:
Have you found an answer?
Mike McFall:
Not really. No, I think I have. And it falls back into the purpose of what we're doing, and wanting to have impact and wanting to improve the human condition. And that to me is motivating. And you know we crossed over this moment when my hygiene factors were well taken care of, and then I really quickly started to lose inspiration and motivation.
Laura:
Interest. Yeah. Yeah.
Mike McFall:
So what motivates you?
Laura:
Well, so I'm not sure. I need to spend a minute thinking about that. What was coming to mind though is, so I'm a runner. I enjoy running things like actual whole marathons and that sort of thing. And I've had lots of people who are like, "I just can't get motivated to run. What motivates you to run that far?" Especially when you start getting into the high teens and 20s in mileage, where you're spending literally hours running. And you break your body, you choose to be in pain. And what motivates you to just keep doing that, and why do you enjoy... I was describing the last six miles of my last marathon and how I was pretty sure I had a shoe full of blood for the last six miles of my last marathon. And someone's like, "Why? Why?" And I get it because I was that same person asking that question.
And for me, with running, motivation followed the discipline of it, which is interesting. Yeah, I had a want one day in February of, I think it was 2017 or something where I was like, I want to see if I could run somewhere and see how that went. So I was curious one day, went for a run. Pretty sure I was in thick cotton yoga pants and 10 year old tennis shoes and that kind of thing. Went for the run, came back, and I was like, well, that was interesting. Now I wonder if I could do that again, but faster. And so that was the early curiosity, but I wouldn't quite call it motivation yet.
And then I started committing to myself some amount of rhythm to it where it was like, okay, I'm going to run two times this week. Okay, I'm going to go for a run three times this week. I'm going to run for a half an hour three times this week. And I just built on that. And eventually it became that, I don't know, maybe motivation was never even really a factor. It was more like I came to revel in the feeling I got from it. So I guess that is probably the motivation to it, which is I reveled in the accomplishment of it. I reveled in the post-run euphoria that you can feel and the continuous accomplishment. That's probably built somewhere into my DNA, because I think that's part of my work motivation too, is I like building, yeah, growing, building, going after something I haven't done before. I'm pretty sure post-baby, I'm going to get into ultra marathoning, and that kind of thing because now I got to see what happens after 26.2 miles and that kind of thing.
Mike McFall:
Well, I think too for, I mean runners anyway, it's also this commitment to yourself and the discipline that you've made a commitment to yourself, and then therefore you have to live up to this self-commitment or this commitment you've made.
Laura:
Totally.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. That's cool. Well, I think about the love and leadership concept. And as a leader, I think it would behoove all of us to spend some time with people that we work with about what motivates them. I'll never forget Austin, and we were talking about unlimited vacation. And Austin came to me, and I'll never forget this moment because it twisted my brain. He's like, "I can't do unlimited vacation. You cannot do that to me. I thrive off the structure I get from this job. I thrive on waking up in the morning and having something to do. If you give me unlimited vacation, that is going to be a mess for me, and it's not going to work and you guys are going to fire me within six months. So I'm just telling you right now if you do..."
So I was thinking, of course, unlimited vacation is like that's the be all end all. And he was like, "Oh no." So how different. The structure of a job and showing up at work at a certain time really was meaningful and important to Austin. And maybe that isn't for everybody that way. But anyway. So understanding motivations and why people do things, that's kind of on my brain right now.
Laura:
Yeah, that's a fun thing to think about. So our guest today, I'm really, really, really excited for this conversation. Caitlin Townsend Lamb is someone that I got to know through a really unique educational opportunity called the Intrapreneur Accelerator. Intrapreneur being people trying to make change, make big ideas happen from somewhere in the middle of a company. Not a founder, not a CEO, but people who are trying to make change from within. And I fell in love with this woman, and I'm so excited to have her introduce herself, explain where she's coming from, get into this conversation. I don't think it's what people are going to expect from someone who works at a plastics manufacturing company. It's just a guess. I think they're going to be kind of surprised by that. So if you're ready to jump into it, I'm ready to jump into it. Let's get into the conversation-
Mike McFall:
Let's go, let's go, let's go.
Laura:
... with Caitlin Townsend Lamb. All right, Miss Caitlin, we're going to get started with a nice easy question. You're the best person to introduce yourself. So who are you, where are you from in this world, and what is it that you do?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
That could be a long answer. So I'm Caitlin Townsend Lamb.
Laura:
The brief version.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah, the brief version. Thank you. So yeah, my name's Caitlin Townsend Lamb. I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I left for a little bit and came back. Didn't intend to stay, but I have found a really great fit here, both with family but also with work. So I work with Cascade Engineering, and I've done several different roles. I actually am celebrating my 14 year anniversary with them this week. So I-
Laura:
Congratulations.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Thank you. Thank you. It's been a great journey. I started with an executive assistantship here, but currently I am our director for people advancement and continuous improvement systems and communications for the organization.
Laura:
Which we have to talk about that job because it sounds a little bit like you do everything, or you do three very different jobs. I'm not really sure. But can you break that down a little bit? Like people, what was it, people advancement, communications, and continuous improvement?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yes. Yeah.
Laura:
What is all that?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
That's a great question. So I've done continuous improvement at the organization for over a decade. And that I feel is really the heart of everything that I do from the lean manufacturing system, it really boils down to all being about people. Continuous improvement, process improvement is really about how we think and how we work together as a team and groups of people bringing our various perspectives. So I've done that work for a long time, but since I walked in the doors here, I had a really deep desire to be heavily involved in our triple bottom line culture work and making sure that I was living into that and doing that work for the organization.
So people advancement really comes out of many years of raising my hand and volunteering to be involved in things, seeking learning opportunities. And so I get to do that work now with helping to continue systems that we already had in place and build some new approaches to giving our employees opportunities and pathways to the careers that they want. And communications really kind of ties that all together by looking at how are we talking with our people, how are we getting their input and insight back into what we do for the organization and how do we present that to the world?
Mike McFall:
Can I dive in on something there? Will you give me your version, the company's version of triple bottom line? What are the three things, and then when did that become something relevant within Cascade Engineering?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah. So it predates me for sure, and was one of the things that I really fell in love with when I started here. I didn't intend to stay here for 14 years. I thought maybe this was a one year gig in between jobs, but-
Laura:
We all do that. It's fine.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
It's a classic move. So triple bottom line for us, I started in 2009, and it was already well underway at that point. Fred Keller, our founder, really worked with our executive team to define what that meant for us and how we lived into it. So we look at it at people, planet, and profit. So we know we need to make money, we know we have to be profitable to sustain ourselves and keep the doors open, like any business.
But we also understand that investing time and attention into doing what's best for our people and also the communities that we work in and live in, as well as making sure that we're being good stewards of the environment, which can be a challenge as a manufacturer. Especially when we started this journey, that was maybe a newer conversation within manufacturing. And so we really look at those three things as how do we make the best decision given all of those considerations, and making sure that we're doing our financial duty to stay sustainable and to stay here for our employees. But what else can we do as a business to improve the lives of the people that we interact with?
Mike McFall:
So profit's perfectly quantifiable. Dollars and cents. Do you have something similar for the environment and for people?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
We do, yes. So probably not as established as profit, but in planet, we do several things. So when I started, we had a lot of initial work into how we actually make our products. We're a plastics manufacturing company. I would say that work has hugely increased during my tenure at the organization. So we look at things like energy usage, we look at energy efficiencies, we look at waste to landfill was one of the major programs when I came in. We put in a full recycling and compost program to really eliminate our need to take anything to landfill. So that was a beginning step in our journey. So we're looking at carbon, we are looking at energy efficiencies, how we run our machines, how efficiently we do our operations, what kind of scrap we're generating. So we have multiple metrics that we look at and say, how are we doing in relationship to our commitment to the environment?
And for people, we use a phrase called employer of choice, and we really have about 50 metrics internally that we look at for that. It includes safety metrics, it includes retention metrics, internal advancement metrics, culture metrics, our anti-racism work that we do as part of that measurement process in our education and advancement of our leadership as well. So we have many things that we look at to check in on ourselves. And we also ask that question a lot, are these the right metrics? Are these really telling us that we're doing a good job? Or where do we need to grow?
Laura:
Is there a top metric per thing for people? Is there a top one, two, or three? Planet top one, two, three?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
That's a really good question. When I look at our employer of choice, so again, it's like 50 weighted metrics that compile up into one composite score. But we really look at safety first and foremost as must do, can't fail in that place. Especially as a manufacturing company. So that is always top of mind, it forever will be top of mind for us. But we also are spending a lot of time on our retention, and we're getting ready to do our employee opinion survey again, which we do every couple of years as well. And then do some dialogue sessions around that with our employees. So that employee opinion survey will be a really big one. Retention is a huge measure for us right now as well.
Laura:
You also mentioned your anti-racism work. And I know I've heard a little bit about this, but I'd love you to talk a little bit more about that. What is it that you guys do? Why do you do it? And what does it look like? Everything like that.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
So our anti-racism work, again, well predates me. It was up and running in pretty high fashion when I came into the organization. So it really was inspired by our founder and CEO, Fred Keller, and his own personal journey and realizations he had as being a person in positions of privilege in our society. And it came from his thinking of what are we as an employer in a position to do? What's our moral and ethical responsibility to address systemic racism? How does that show up in our organization? Are we creating barriers for people to be successful and be part of our journey at Cascade Engineering? The answer was yes. The whole society has different functions based on our history that exclude or include different people.
And so it became a journey, and it's a long journey. We're still on it. We haven't arrived anywhere. We don't claim to be perfect. We don't claim to be experts. We continuously we have monthly dialogue sessions that all employees are welcome to attend. And we talk about different aspects of inclusion, different aspects of bias. We just did a training for our leadership team on what does respect look like in the workplace? How do we create more inclusive experiences based on our own self-awareness of whatever perceptions or biases we might have? And that's really what I love and what's kept me at Cascades for so long is those are normal dialogues that we have here. And they're difficult. They can be uncomfortable. But we know that when we have them, we are doing our best to learn and to grow as individuals, but also create a better space for the people that are working with us.
Laura:
Do you create all of that in-house, or do you bring third parties in to host those dialogues, teach those training sessions, that kind of thing?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah, we've done both. So internally, we just did that. The most recent training we did-
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:19:04]
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Internally, we just did that. The most recent training, we did ourselves. But we've had several partnerships externally. Several years ago we brought in the Jim Crow Museum as well and did work with Ferris State University around that. Toured all of our employees.
So let me back up. That might not be a familiar statement. So it's a museum of racist memorabilia. So we've done different exhibits, we've hosted community conversations to also bridge between ourselves and the community to have some of these dialogues. We also started the Young Professionals of Color Conference here in Grand Rapids. So we focus on West Michigan, and we open it up to really anyone who identifies as a young or emerging professional, and is a person of color, and invite them to come in for a day of... We have keynote speakers, we have professional development, personal development, and just some space for community building comradery, because we want and need everyone, both at Cascade Engineering, but also in West Michigan as a broader community, as a broader economy. And so we really have worked over the years, so many people have contributed to the success of that conference, of really creating a place where people belong and they have the opportunity to build community and build connection.
So it's internal and it's external. We're really hoping that our work expands across the community and we learn from our fellow employers in the community on this as well.
Laura:
Do you ever get met with the... How do I describe it? The, that's not my job kind of feeling? Or stick to the job, make sure people are doing their jobs? Because right now, it sounds like if you work at Cascade, you get to have lots of conversations and talk about lots of things, and it takes a lot of time. And maybe you'll be asked to participate in things outside of Cascade. And do you ever get... Usually I experience this with other management team members who are like, "We just need time to do the work. Stop trying to have conversations." Or whatever. Is that something you've experienced?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Absolutely. And I think that's probably the common thread for anybody who works in business, or maybe even any sector, and is really invested in what are we doing for our people and what are we doing for our teams, and really any kind of development work. So we have had those conversations too.
We've also had some more difficult conversations of people saying, "I have my beliefs, and those are what they are." And that's kind of our biggest thing in this journey too. We're not saying people have to think in one way. We're not trying to say, "You have to have the same opinion that I have or another coworker has." What we are saying is we are committed to creating a place where we can have the conversation, and make sure that we are addressing certain beliefs that could lead to behaviors that are not okay in the workplace.
Understanding ourselves, understanding what our paradigms are helps us understand what behaviors might we be doing, consciously, or unconsciously for the most part, that could have a positive or negative impact on people. How do we build on the positive, and how do we control for that negative and shift that as an organization? So I think that's one of the first conversations that we most typically have, especially for newer employees.
But we also had the conversation of, well, how much time do we want to spend in training, is what I hear a lot. And what do we get as the value for that? And some of these conversations are during work time and some of them aren't, and so they're voluntary for people to join in. But in all honesty, we also look at, this is maybe a softer skill or an extra. And over my years here, I've really come to understand that I don't see it that way. I think anytime we spend working on how do we talk to each other about difficult issues, how do we talk to each other when we don't see things from the same lens, really is an opportunity to build our cohesiveness as a team. And that is part of doing the work. If we can talk to each other, if we can understand across perspectives, we do our day-to-day job a lot better. And we also need to make space to train on the technical elements of the job, where we have to do both things in order to live into this Triple Bottom Line aspect.
Mike McFall:
So I've done some writing around the topic of bias. And my position on bias is we're not trying to avoid bias because everyone has bias. And so what we're really trying to do is create environments where people can bring their true, authentic self, bias included, and then let it flop around on the table, and we can all assess it and talk about it, and try to pick it apart and understand it better. But the hard part is to build an environment where people trust that that's okay to do that, to bring your bias or bring your unfiltered opinion that will contain bias. So how do you, in an environment, how do you create that environment where people can show up and bring their authentic selves? And how do you build a trusting relationship?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah, that really, I think, is the heart of it, right? How do you show up to do this work while you just show up as yourself as a human being, also? I think that's step number one of, especially if you are a person who's leading some of this or really advocating for some of this to happen in your organization, or in any organization that you're a part of, how willing are you to set the example and the model for that? Am I willing to stand up and say, "Hey, I would love to have us all talk about bias"? Am I willing to talk about my own? Am I willing to talk about times where I've learned lessons or had my horizons expanded through that process? I really have learned from some amazing leaders here at Cascade watching them do it, and amazing leaders in my personal life watching them do this work.
And to your point, we'll never be rid of the paradigms that we hold. They have come from places we don't even understand, and they've been there for years. They've been developing over years. So I think the biggest thing that I experienced when I started here at Cascade, and now work every day to continue, is to verbalize that. This is an okay thing to ask about. We need to do this with courage and consideration. We have to be respectful of each other. And again, if we're not setting out with the intent to make people think the same thing we think, but we're intending to have a conversation, we're intending to understand each other better, and to open up enough to think critically about our own patterns and our own assumptions of things. My experience is everybody always leaves the room with some new thought than what they had before and the different thoughts, the different feelings, and sometimes they're difficult. But we've had that conversation, so now we can come back and have another one, and another one, and another one.
Mike McFall:
And so what I heard there was what you advocate, the leader first has to show up and be vulnerable. Be willing to talk about their bias. Set the example that it's okay to bring this stuff. And then that grants, and really does grant, everyone else permission to do that as well.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yes. Yes. 100%.
Mike McFall:
In our experience, Laura and I have talked a fair amount about the idea that traditional leadership is that you show up and you're perfect, and that you don't show your flaws, your weaknesses. You're not vulnerable about the things that you're concerned about or worried about because you have to be perfect. And that's a really-
Laura:
You have to have all the answers.
Mike McFall:
... a flawed way of thinking because that means everybody else has to be perfect too.
Laura:
No pressure.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Right.
Laura:
Yeah, and I wanted to dive actually in that direction of leadership because I'm guessing, based on your description of your role in your company, that you also do some amount of coaching leaders. Not just opening up dialogue for anybody, but probably people in formal leadership positions. And so my favorite question to ask people in general is what traditional leadership expectation needs to die? What needs to be let go in the world, in your opinion, as far as traditional leadership thinking goes?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah. So one of my big things, I've been actually coming up against this a lot, and I think social science is catching up with this thought, is that... It really is so much in line with what you were just talking about, Mike, in that this idea of perfection, this idea of, there is one way to do this and that's the way you move forward. But it goes in the line of this conversation about soft skills. What do we really mean by that? I don't know where that came from, but it's such a disservice, I think, to any organization. And really to any person. If we really took it out of a business setting and looked at any relationship we have in our life and we say, "You know what? I really want as somebody who just has all the right answers and will just tell me what to do." That's not a sustainable way to move through life, and build relationships, and be part of teams.
So this thought of soft skills as extra, or soft skills as fluff, or not critical to the technical or tactical work that we do every day, it's just not true. It's so inaccurate. When we look at what we mean by that and we look at emotional intelligence, we look at, can you be in a place where you are having a lot of what we call stimulus and response, right? You're having a lot of stimulus. You're having something in front of you that's upsetting, concerning, or even something that's really exciting. How do you build and how do you support other people building skills to take a breath before responding and just make some space for people? I don't think that we put enough emphasis on letting people be human beings wherever they are. We talk about it a lot personally. I think socially, we talk about it a lot personally. But we have to keep making space for people to show up as human beings in the workplace.
I think one of the ways that that shows up is also owning when you make mistakes, or when you realize you could have done something better. When you realize maybe an interaction with another person that you work with maybe it wasn't what you intended or maybe did some damage. Opening the space of just saying, "Hey, I don't like how that happened. Here's what I think I could do differently. Can we have a conversation about how that felt for you?" That goes so much further in building trust, when it's done authentically. This is not a toolkit, from my perspective, it's not a toolkit of how to make people trust you, but it is a commitment to showing up and taking on responsibilities of leading people.
For me, it's sacred ground. When you're in a formal leadership position, and you have so much more influence than maybe even you realize at times over someone's personal stress level, their happiness, their access to development and growth opportunities, which impacts their pathway to their professional development, impacts earning potential, that's someone's quality of life. And you have, on a day-to-day basis, so much influence in what happens for that person. I think it's okay for us, as an organization, I know it's okay for us as an organization at Cascade, but I think it's okay for us as a society to make a little more room for that and prioritize how we show up.
And it goes back to what you were talking about with bias, Mike, right? We all have it. We all have ways that we make decisions and think about things. Are we prioritizing the people around us enough to take a step back and understand how that's influencing us, and make sure we're not doing harm by doing that? When we do that well, and we do that from an authentic standpoint of view, my experience as an employee of someone who does that well is that I want to come here, I want to show up here, but more so, I believe that I'm actually cared about. And that changes everything.
Mike McFall:
I talk about how we have to flip the equation and that we, as leaders, need to earn the right to lead. And you do that through everything that you just said there, right? You're earning the right to lead people. And we should be honored that we have the opportunity to lead people.
Laura:
Yeah. The phrase that people in formal leadership should approach that responsibility as if it's sacred ground, that's going to stick in my head. Because, like, yes, you have so much influence over how someone goes home to their family on that day, and you have so much influence over their future. It should be nurtured and protected, that relationship, from the formal leader's position.
I actually wanted to ask you about that a little bit more in detail because I heard the phrase, "Helping people show up as themselves and as their whole human selves." I don't actually know if this is part of your role or if you just do this naturally because you are who you are, but how do you teach that? If you have a leader, a formal leader who's not necessarily approaching that responsibility as if it's sacred ground, how do you help get them there? How do you coach that? How do you teach that? How do you lead them there? Really practically at Cascade, and you can also go, of course, you as Caitlin, what do you do? And do you have any practices that help inform that?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Oh, such a good question. The answer is yes, we do have formal ways that we do that here at Cascade. And many of those ways I am involved in. I think, especially to your point when you're talking about the situation where we have someone who is in a leadership position and something's going on, something's not flowing, something's not working as well as it could, that's just a difficult place to be in.
So the first thing I personally always do is really think about how to show up in a way that gives that person the space to learn. It's not something that I believe in, nor is it something I was taught at Cascade and by the people I've learned from, that we need to have... It might be a hard conversation, but it can also be a learning and development conversation at the same time. So the biggest focus is, do we understand what's happening? Does that person understand the perspective of others in the situation? And now what can we do to support their growth? What resources do we have internally or externally to do that?
So this can happen in a variety of ways. Obviously if we have any concerns that are rising up in the organization, we're going to investigate that and try to have some conversations, and get in that process early. We also have a formal process that we use for all of our leaders. It's on certain cadences based on how they're doing in the organization and how these results come in. But it's a personal effectiveness profile is what we call it. Kind of like a 360. So we have technical aspects of the job that we look at for that, but we also have trustworthy-ness, is what we call it. Really factored in from several different emotional intelligence and cultural trainings that we do. And that's feedback from peers, that's feedback from supervisors, from other people, colleagues in the organization, as well as direct reports.
So we have a cadence by which we formally collect feedback and analyze that, and look for areas of development and growth for those leaders. And when we have concerning results from that, we really make a lot of time and space to talk about what has to shift and change. Those are difficult moments sometimes, or at least uncomfortable. Nobody wants to be on the receiving end of that conversation. But our practice here is really to take that and say, "Now what do we do going forward? Let's identify the things I have to shift and then let's build some support around that process."
Laura:
Man, personal effectiveness profile. I want to explore that. I want to talk to you about that more. Literally the details and how we do that. Is it part of a review? You said you collect feedback.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
What a question.
Laura:
Okay.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
So it's actually a separate process for us. And there's a really good reason for that. So we have an annual review, which all of our employees receive, where we talk about technical and interpersonal performance. We do have cultural values as part of everyone's performance review here at Cascade. So we talk about how are we supporting the Triple Bottom Line, how are you leading with courage and consideration? We have personal leadership effectiveness is what we call it. It's based on some of the seven habits principles, and emotional intelligence as well. So we have those conversations on a formal annual basis. But the PEP, or the personal effectiveness profile, is something that is done on a rolling cadence, usually about every two years for a leader. And that is-
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:38:04]
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Every two years for a leader. And that is a separate conversation. It is a purely designed to be a developmental conversation. If we have concerns, we put some other performance parameters around that where we want to see improvement, but it is separate. And it's intended to be separate because we want people to give candid feedback. It is anonymous. So if you have to give some hard feedback about your supervisor, you don't have to worry about, "Now they know what that is. Does that change our relationship? Does it harm me in some way?"
Obviously, our goal is to never let that happen. But it is an opportunity to really be fully honest with how you're feeling and how you experience that other person. And some people will not be fully honest if they feel like, "I don't want to negatively impact their review. I don't want to be part of something that becomes damaging to this person." So we have intentionally separated those two processes.
Laura:
Wow. That's major. That's very cool. Thank you for diving into that. I know it's a little nuts and boltsy, but it's the kinds of nuts and bolts I enjoy you talking about.
So I'm curious still, because I feel like I haven't moved on from the first question to understand your job. What is a day in the life of Caitlin actually look like? Because it sounds magical and wonderful and full of deep and meaningful conversations. But I'm guessing there's, I don't know, maybe more to it than that? Or you just do have a magical job where it's just full of deep and meaningful conversations. What does the day in the life look like on average?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah. I was thinking through this. I'm like, "It really depends on the day." So I'll give you maybe a week in the life. The great thing is I get to see so many different people in so many different functions on a daily basis in our organization, which I love because I think it keeps me grounded in multiple perspectives of what's important, what's going on and what do we need to do.
You're right, it is a bit magical how the flow happens, with all these pieces. But I mean, in any given week, I'll have touchpoints with brand new people walking in the door through new employee orientation. I'll be doing touch-bases on strategy that same day with our HR leaders and my boss who oversees all of our business services. I'll be having conversations about continuous improvement, cost savings, process improvement within our operations functions. I'll then move in with my communications team and talk about what are we celebrating with our employees this week? What's some critical news and notices that we have to get out?
We'll be working across our operations team, our benefits team, our safety team, to make sure that people have the information they need. We'll be talking about do we want to be three to five years from now with our websites and our branding? And then we'll move into other conversations about how do we support this leader? What classes could be available? Can we get them set up with this resource? Another employee will come in and work with me on tuition reimbursement assistance, which we manage through our people advancement. Are we matching them up with all the opportunities available?
Right now we are in the midst of one major software update, so that's been a huge part of my life recently. Working with everybody from IT to operations to outside consultants, and just supporting the team, making sure we all know what's next.
We are all moving towards the same priority and are we doing this in a way that makes us better as a business? Are we always asking that question of, "Do we understand the problem?" How do we find a good solution that is in the highest good of all concerned, right? And now how do we move forward with that process?
And then... I'm trying to think how I typically close my week out. Moving into even monthly management meetings where we're looking at all of our KPIs across the organization and coordinating some longer term projects for training for our technical team, building our pipeline through apprenticeship programs, and then really looking at how did this go this week? What are we going to do different next week? And always asking the question of so many people of, "What can I do for you? What do you need from me?" That is always my through line.
Laura:
Okay. So you do do everything.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah.
Laura:
You are a unicorn. Okay, I got it. [inaudible 00:42:42].
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Look at those [inaudible 00:42:43]. Yes.
Mike McFall:
Let me ask this then. Two-part question, each end of the spectrum. What is the hardest thing that you face in your work? And then, secondly, if you could wave your beautiful magic wand and make one thing happen in the world, what would it be?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Whoa. That is so much.
Laura:
Heavy.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah. Okay. Let me take this one at a time. So you said, what's the hardest part?
Mike McFall:
Of your job, yeah. Of what you do inside of the organization.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Oh my gosh. That's an excellent question. I think the hardest thing is... Everyone around me, no matter what their function, whether they're part of my formal teams or not, that I work with on a day-to-day basis, or they're in a totally different part of the organization that I'm having passing conversations with... We all have so much passion and so much vision of where do we want to go and who do we want to be in two years, five years, 10 years, and I don't really hear a lot of bad ideas from the people that we work with. So the hardest thing for me, especially coming from a continuous improvement and a process improvement mindset is how do we stair step our way there?
How do you balance seeing where we want to be and then working through the challenges to get there and staying positive about that, celebrating the wins along the way. And that happens in every group that I work with. We know who we want to be. We know what we want to contribute, and having to balance that with the realities of today is challenging. It's really challenging. But when we make progress and we reach those milestones, we celebrate that. And I really appreciate that about our organization.
Okay. And now the much harder question.
Laura:
Magic wand in hand.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Man. Man, man, man. If I could wave a magic wand and fix something in the world. As a systems thinker, this is a very unfair question because, in my process, tries to force me into the root of things.
I don't know everything I need to know to have the perfect answer to that question, is what I feel very deeply inside myself right now. But what I would do is really wave a magic wand that could magically detect all the sources for the output. For me, the output is, "I want to live in a world where everybody wakes up feeling loved and appreciated and valued in their life." And that's personal, it's professional, it's within their community.
If that wand could address health, housing, access to education, right? Addressing generations of inequity based on systems of... Specifically in our nation, but I think you can find that anywhere in the world. That's what it would be. I think every person has the right to mental health and physical health. And we have so much work to do as a society to get everybody there.
Laura:
The magic wand can do that.
Mike McFall:
Thank you for taking that one on.
Laura:
It can totally do that.
Mike McFall:
Thank you.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah.
Laura:
I was curious about something maybe similar to the first part of that question. Because sometimes we get into this situation... Mike and I do, too... where we talk about where things are today, and the things we're proud of and the practices and the procedures and everything that's really good right now. We don't spend a lot of time looking back on challenges we've overcome.
But you've been there for 14 years, which means that for sure you've been part of making positive improvement over time. It sounds like Cascade is not a company that would keep people around who aren't making contributions to positive improvement to the entire culture of your company over time. I'm wondering if you can think of a specific challenge that you were part of overcoming? Maybe a time you dug down deep and found the source and were able to solve the source of the issue. I'm thinking more on the people side of things, but could be people, planet, profit, could be any of those. Can you think of a challenge that you've been part of? And how you overcame it, of course.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
This is the classic interview question. And as much as I've interviewed other people [inaudible 00:48:11]
Laura:
I'm actually interviewing you for BIGGBY COFFEE right now.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Oh, yeah.
Laura:
Yeah. Just so you know.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Oh my gosh. It's hard to narrow it down. Yeah, this is a good one.
What I want to talk about in this answer is usually the smaller... what seem like smaller wins. And some of those pieces are really in the interpersonal. As our team has shifted over the last couple of years and we've had some really amazing leaders retire, I'm learning how to do some of our really core leadership cultural classes. And really working to understand how to show up in order to benefit the people around me, is a big learning process that I'm in right now. And I think I'll stay in that. So maybe in a couple of years ask me if I figured that one out.
Laura:
You got it.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
But I think-
Laura:
Are you in the middle of a challenge right now?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Oh, we are. We are. And I think we always are, right? There's always something that we're working on and trying to move forward. Right now, we're in a process that is really forcing us to look at a lot of methods of how we've run our business over the last several decades really, with a cross-functional team, some who are brand new, some who have been here since before our last system was put in place. And the challenge of incorporating every perspective, every need, in order to make the business run in a way that everyone wants it to... Because we all want the same thing. We all want to be successful. We all want to see Cascade flourish and grow. And we all want to see that happen while our jobs get easier, not harder, as we carry out our specific responsibilities for that.
It's really been amazing to be in those teams. It is right now... But I think that's all of the examples I can think of... is these big cross-functional things where we had to solve a problem or get something off the ground. And it really required us to take a step back and use some of these, what we would call cultural principles of the ability to dialogue. The ability to take a step back and create some space between stimulus and response. The ability to treat each other with respect and consideration no matter what's going on.
We have done some really amazing things. We've created some incredible systems, improvements in our efficiencies, innovation in design that I've seen in the organization. It's really powerful. So I think all of my examples really come back to being able to be a helpful part of a team.
I could probably go into 20 other specifics of how that's shaped out, both from manufacturing process improvement, but also to curriculum development for our people. And really looking at how do we match up the things that we want to do, and the things we want to spend all this time doing training and development around. How do we marry that with strategy? And how do we bring that to people in a way where it's equitable, in a way that it's beneficial, to everyone? I'm not sure I really answered your question, Laura, so you feel free to ask me anything else you want to ask me about that. I went way deep into my systems mind on that one.
Laura:
We got to connect you with John Gilkey, our president, sometime because I feel like you guys could have a whole conversation that Mike and I wouldn't really know what you're talking about the whole time.
Mike McFall:
We wouldn't understand a word.
Laura:
But you would enjoy it. That'd be great for both of you.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Please do.
Laura:
He's into systems improvement, quality, lean... All these things are his bread and butter. We should get him on the podcast sometime and see what happens. I think you answered it ish. I think one of the things I always fear people are going to walk away from some of these conversations is that it sounds like we have it all figured out when I think the reality of living in any company who's trying to do something beyond profit, to try to do something for people, trying to solve a worthy problem in the world, living with purpose, is that at all times we actually know we're not perfect and we haven't figured it all out.
And I always think the bar is just constantly on the move for people's expectations of us, people's expectations for us as a company, and everything like that. And so I just wanted to dive into that a little bit because it's a myth. If you think any company has it all figured out, they just don't.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
No. No, we don't. As you're saying that, I'm really thinking about the work we've done in the past couple of years with our internal program called Pay for Contribution. So we call it PFC, and it's actually something that came out of a lot of struggle many, many years ago with employees really walking out of our facility. Not feeling like they were being heard, not feeling they were being valued. And we created an internal pipeline where we said, "We want to give you the tools and skills to be successful. You take that responsibility on. You show that you can contribute that way to the organization and we will start moving you along in your career path."
We had to undergo a redesign of that program a couple of years ago. I think everybody walked in from operations, human resources... And I say operations really broadly, but I'm really talking about our quality teams, our materials management teams, our plant management teams, human resources, our whole business services team.
And we walked in saying, "We know this system. We built this system. We know what to do here." And the more we dug in, the more we had to question, "Is this what we need for where we are right now?" And so many times in those meetings, the answer was, "We need to think about that." Because we don't have an immediate answer, we have an immediate opinion. Everybody had that. We came well-prepared with our opinions, but we really had to take more time than we thought we needed because we had to make a lot more space to think about this from different angles. And not just think about it from how are our plant managers and frontline leaders going to administer this, but also does this really get the individual where they need to go? Is this actually aligned with business strategy? Because if we make a mistake and we say, "Oh, these are all the classes and these are the requirements that you need," and it doesn't align with business skill, we're limiting their ability to move up in the organization.
So we had to have a much deeper, much longer conversation than we intended. But we came out of that addressing pain points in other parts of the organization with people who weren't even part of that process. And through this upgrade that we're doing right now, the systems improvement we're doing, we're actually eliminating some of the need to have additional training outside of on the job because we're improving the way the process works. So we're putting some of that empowerment back in our supervisors' hands. Still part of our program but even the simplest thing where you think this is about our technical pipeline, our maintenance pipeline, this is about our HR pipeline, it's never just about that. Because an organization is not really a thing by itself, right? An organization, all it is, is the people who show up to it every day. It's the people who buy things from it. It's the people who supply things to it. It's the community members who value it or don't value it. All of those things come together. But if none of us came to our workplace tomorrow, the workplace would cease to exist.
So it continues to be a learning journey for me. And a continuous practice of trying to show up with some thoughts, with some ideas of how it can be helpful, but be willing to be influenced, be willing to critically think about your paradigms, your bias, and what you think is the best way. Because we constantly have to be making room for new perspectives, new-
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:57:04]
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
... constantly have to be making room for new perspectives, new ideas, and the way the world is shifting.
Mike McFall:
I would add one layer of color to that, which is, yes, an organization is its people, but it's really the relationships amongst the people that make the organization. And we're always either building trust and building that relationship. That equation can only go in two directions we're building or we're reducing the amount of trust that we have.
I have to ask you. You had mentioned, and I may not have heard this right, you had mentioned most recently you've been working on, I think it was a course or a class on respect; is that right?
Can you just unfold that envelope for a second and talk about what that looks like, what that is, maybe what you teach in that class or in that moment?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah, great question. I wanted to ask you if you had stolen our curriculum for our personal leadership effect in this class when you were talking about building trust or decreasing trust.
So we have several different courses that we build on our content, right? So you'll hear very similar things throughout, and the core of all of it is relationships, right? Who is it you want to be? Who is it that you would respect out in the world? Now what do you do to be that person? How do we show up in a way that builds trust every day?
Actually, we start off on that formally with a required class for every single employee called the Personal and Leadership Effectiveness Workshop based on seven habits principles, based on emotional intelligence. And we really start with that conversation. That's one of the first things we get into is how we show up is our choice and how we show up and how we receive other people impacts the level of trust that you have interpersonally, which translates to every other thing that happens in the workplace. Translates to your relationship with your boss, coworker, a friend who you're working alongside.
When we look at the respect training that we did, many organizations would probably frame that training as an anti-harassment training. But we really tied that concept back to our personal leadership effectiveness work of saying, "We have to take a step back and understand our paradigms, our mental models, AKA bias, our preferences for certain things." Because what we talk about in these trainings really is our actions and our behaviors, but it all starts with our mindset. When we look at what traditionally we would call, how do you avoid harassment in the workplace, we take it a step back and say, "How do we show up with the intent to have respect and inclusion in this space? What are the things that are required of us as leaders to do that?"
We pulled material from our initial course that's required for everyone, and we do refreshers on that course every few years, more often if you're a leader, and we really work to build that into the ways that we communicate when we talk about expectations, when we talk about what we need from you as a leader and how we need you to coach your team, we really build on those things. We've got work to do on that, but that's really where we started from was understanding what is your perception? What are your mental models that you're bringing into these conversations? How does that impact how you deal with development conversations? How does that impact how you might perceive somebody in an interview? How does that impact how you might deal with difficult situations within your team? How do you problem solve that? How do you give hard feedback? What does it mean to be in a disciplinary situation with an employee? And how does your mindset, and how does your approach build or diminish trust even in that difficult situation?
I totally agree with you, Mike. I think trust and interpersonal relationship is really what makes the organization work or not, right?
Laura:
Man. So you're brilliant. Just in case no one's told you today, it's amazing. It's amazing listening to someone who's so intelligent and brings so much thoughtfulness and mindfulness and passion and heart to that brilliance. It's just really cool to listen to. It's also why we've officially run out of time. Because I think I could listen to you just keep going.
Before I ask one last question, Mike, is there anything else you want to fit in? Because I know you sometimes get mad at me.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Laura:
Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Mike McFall:
I want one word that if you could tell every person, every leader in the world, what would that word be?
Laura:
Like a word to keep in mind?
Mike McFall:
Yep. If you could say one word.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Compassion.
Mike McFall:
Thank you.
Laura:
I was going to say love. What do you say, Mike?
Mike McFall:
Well, I got myself in trouble on this one. I did a piece with QSR magazine. It was like a CEO to CEO piece, and they closed out the whole interview with, "If you could say one word to every CEO in America, what would it be?" And I said, "Shut up."
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
That's too Mike.
Mike McFall:
No, I did ask if it could be hyphenated. I said, "Could it be hyphenated?" Sorry. No, but I--
Laura:
That's good, too.
Mike McFall:
... do like the answer compassion. Yep. I agree with that.
Laura:
Yeah, I love that. And my last question for you, Caitlin, is if you... So it sounds like Cascade is a place where if you have concerns, if you have feedback, if you want to bring change, that that is possible. I don't think every person listening to this works at a place where they know that a change needs to happen, they know their company could be doing more, could be doing better, or their boss could be doing more, could be doing better.
What is your advice in a couple of sentences for that person who wants to make change happen? How do they start?
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Yeah, that's a good one. I think you have to start... Depending on what their role is in the company, this takes on different flavors. I just was talking with somebody about having to be a bit cognizant of assumptions we make of how easy it is to communicate something based on where we are in an organization. Different seats have different ability and different access. The goal is that that isn't true, but that is a bit how structures work, whether it's just you don't have access to even talk to that person every day, or there's some other cultural component in the organization where maybe there's some boundaries of how that communication happens.
I think the first thing I would always recommend is seek first to understand and then to be understood. I think that it's really easy, myself included, to again, come prepared with my opinion of what's not right, what should be better, why it should be that way, who should do that, and how it should happen and how fast. That's who we are as human beings. Our brain works like that to make decisions to keep us alive every day. But the way that you approach the conversation of change is as important as the change you're suggesting. And it goes back to this conversation of how do you build trust? You never know what the person you're bringing this concern to is dealing with personally, professionally. So if you come to this and say, "This is my experience, this is what I've noticed. Maybe I don't even fully understand the problem I'm bringing or what the solution is or what all the details are about it, but help me understand why do we do things this way?"
And then move into the conversation of, "This is my perspective of what I think could be different." And also, maybe raise your hand to take part in doing some of the work for that. It's not about not having free time or being too busy to do the work. I don't think that's it. It's that the best way to make a solution that works for everybody is to actually include everybody. So when you're the person bringing the idea for the change, ask how you can help. Bring facts, bring data, bring your feelings, too, but make sure you're doing that in a way that takes into account the humanity of everybody involved. And sometimes those conversations don't go well, sometimes we hit a brick wall. It doesn't mean you shouldn't keep having them, right?
Laura:
Yep. You're brilliant. That's my conclusion for today. I just want to thank you. Thank you so much for bringing your heart and your mind, your voice to us today. I've just so enjoyed hearing from you and talking to you and even getting to know you a little bit better.
Caitlin Townsend Lamb:
Thank you so much for inviting me and just the opportunity. I know I always love talking to Laura no matter what the topic is, but this was a great conversation to have with you both and to get to know you better, too, Mike. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, thank you for doing this. Appreciate it.
Well, that's the first time I've had the opportunity to spend any time with Caitlin. That was magical. I like her a lot.
Laura:
Isn't she cool?
Mike McFall:
Yeah.
Laura:
Yeah.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. I mean, I just enjoy... It's a really unique combination she has, which is the systems brain that is so wired that way.
Laura:
Yes.
Mike McFall:
But then the compassion and the commitment to people. And I don't know that you see that all that often in the world.
Laura:
No. I literally thought about asking her a question of, have you ever met someone like you? Because I think she might legitimately be a unicorn in the world because I agree. I think people are usually... We do that activity called Work Styles where we put people on a spectrum from people to task. I think she might be the true center of that spectrum, and it creates a really interesting approach to caring for people in an organization.
Mike McFall:
Yeah. I mean, in many ways it reminds me of the things that John talks about, [inaudible 01:08:02], because he talks about systems and so on as actually being very, very pro people.
Laura:
Yes.
Mike McFall:
And supporting people in their development, and the systems are the backbone of all of it so that we can do all of the work that we need to get done and take care of people and so on. Yeah. So that was amazing.
What jumped out of the conversation for you?
Laura:
So I was hit twice with full on body responses. One was to the comment of leadership being sacred ground and taking it that seriously because I don't think people do. I think it's actually why we get so frustrated when leaders aren't meeting the expectations we have for them and how they're caring for their people and that kind of thing. I just thought the gravitas behind that was appropriate and awesome.
And then the second time... Oh, my brain's breaking. I know I sat back and literally put my hand on my heart because she got me with it.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, I saw that.
Laura:
Oh, it was the organizations only exist with humans concept. An organization isn't a thing without the living beings that are participating in it and contributing to it and coming to work every day and everything like that. So those are core beliefs that I hold, so I was so excited to hear someone else say it and say it better than I've ever said it.
What about you? What stood out to you?
Mike McFall:
Well, I don't know that it was anything that she said. I thought it was really remarkable that this company, a lot of this stuff was in process and going when she got there 13 years ago.
Laura:
Yeah.
Mike McFall:
And it really speaks to how progressive the organization is. And I don't know the story of Fred Keller. Is he still active? Is he still the CEO of the company? Do you know that?
Laura:
I don't know. I think Fred Keller might be a past tense participant. I don't know, though. So we're just going to have to have her on again because I have more questions about how she exists every day.
Mike McFall:
Yeah, yeah. Here we go. That was one thing that I really enjoyed and was surprising to me. That's one of the things that I am focused on in my world is trying to make sure that this organization continues to act the way we're trying to build it even after I'm gone.
Laura:
Yes.
Mike McFall:
It seems like that's happened here in this organization and that maybe Fred is gone and not actively the CEO anymore, and it sure feels like they're continuing that. And that felt very good to me.
Laura:
Yeah. What was that book you told me about again? Because I've lost it, and I would like to get it. The one that talked about founder... Yep.
Mike McFall:
So Enlightened Capitalists.
Laura:
Okay. Yes. And that one's about the founder influence and the founder impact.
Mike McFall:
It's totally depressing. You'll be [inaudible 01:11:21]. Because 30 examples, and two out of 30 that continued on after the founder gave up control or passed away or whatever. We got to figure that piece out. It was really impressive to me that it seems like that's continuing inside of the organization even after Fred Keller [inaudible 01:11:46].
Laura:
And evolving and probably expanding beyond what he thought, but it definitely sounds like the kind of foundation that was set that you could build on, which is really exciting and inspiring.
Mike McFall:
Yep. Yep.
Laura:
All right, everybody, if you enjoyed what you heard today, you can, of course, find more episodes like this at LoveinLeadershippodcast.com or wherever you find your podcasts. If you want to follow along with Mike's story, you can find more out at michaeljmcfall.com. If you want to follow along with Life You Love Laboratory, please follow us on social media @lifeyoulovelab on Instagram and TikTok.
Mike, thank you as always. Love you lots.
Mike McFall:
Love you, too, Laura. It's been great. I enjoy doing this with you very much.
Laura:
Me too. And listener, we will see you next time.