In the season finale of "Love in Leadership," Laura and Mike are joined by Ryo Zsun, a visitor from the iconic Zappos family of companies. Ryo shares his unique journey at Zappos, starting as a barista and evolving into roles that have him championing the company's celebrated culture and customer service. Explore how to cultivate an environment where personal growth and professional development are intertwined, and learn the innovative strategies Zappos employs to support and engage its employees. From unique workplace amenities like a nap room aquarium to fostering open communication and transparency during times of change, Ryo offers an inspiring glimpse into the practices that make Zappos special.
GUEST BIO:
Ryo Zsun is the culture maestro for the Zappos family of companies, as well as a keynote speaker and thought leader on the power of cultivating healthy workplaces. Everywhere he goes, he shares Zappos’ message of putting people first.
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CORE TOPICS + DETAILS:
[0:35] - Back to Work (Without the Awkwardness)
Comparing sabbatical and the end of maternity leave
Laura discusses her return to work post-maternity leave, comparing it to her previous experience returning from sabbatical. Despite significant personal changes, including a new baby, she was happy to ease back into the company more smoothly than expected. This underscores the company's supportive culture and flexible work environment, highlighting how a strong people-first culture facilitates easier transitions for employees undergoing significant life changes.
[0:45] - Embracing Shifting Priorities
Leveraging life changes to enrich work and personal life
Laura expresses initial concerns that her shift in priorities towards her child might impact her passion and performance at work. However, her positive experience upon returning illustrates how personal changes can enrich one's professional life rather than detract from it. Embracing life's transitions and harnessing them to bring new perspectives and passion helps lift everybody around you.
[10:00] - Company Culture the Zappos Way
Exploring Zappos’ commitment to service
Ryo shares details about his multifaceted role at Zappos, including his contribution to promoting the company's unique culture and exceptional customer service. The conversation sheds light on how Zappos prioritizes being a service company as the foundation of its business model, emphasizing the importance of each employee's role in fostering this environment. The result? Every team member is an ambassador of the values that define Zappos.
[18:00] - A Journey Through Zappos
Ryo’s journey is quintessential Zappos support
Ryo shares his personal journey at Zappos, starting as a barista and evolving into a role where he now wears multiple hats, including that of a concierge and the company's official tour guide. His story is a testament to Zappos' culture of nurturing employee growth and encouraging exploration of diverse roles within the company.
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ABOUT LOVE IN LEADERSHIP:
At the Life You Love LaboratoryTM and BIGGBY® COFFEE, we’re out to prove that financial success and healthy workplace culture aren’t two separate goals. BIGGBY® COFFEE's own cultural transformation is proof that not only is it possible to have a successful company where people aren’t miserable at work, but that the happier your people are, the more your business will grow. Each week, join host Laura Eich, Chief Purpose Officer at BIGGBY® COFFEE, and her co-host and BIGGBY® COFFEE co-CEO Mike McFall as they’re joined by guests from around the world to learn how they are fostering a culture of love and growth in the world’s most innovative and people-centric companies. Get inspired. Get real. Get ready to transform workplace culture in America with us. This is the Love in Leadership podcast.
Learn more at: loveinleadershippodcast.com
ABOUT THE HOSTS:
Mike McFall began his journey with BIGGBY® COFFEE as a minimum-wage barista at the original store in East Lansing in 1996. Over the span of 23 years, alongside business partner Bob Fish, he has helped create one of the great specialty coffee brands in America. Today Mike is co-CEO with Bob, and BIGGBY® COFFEE has over 250 stores open throughout the Midwest that sell tens of thousands of cups of coffee each day. But more importantly to Mike and BIGGBY® COFFEE, the company is a profoundly people-first organization.
Mike is also the author of Grind, a book which focuses on early stage businesses and how to establish positive cash flow.
Laura Eich is BIGGBY® COFFEE’s Chief People Officer, having worked in a variety of roles at BIGGBY® COFFEE for the last 11+ years. She helped launch BOOST, the department at BIGGBY® COFFEE which ultimately became LifeLabTM — BIGGBY® COFFEE’s inhouse culture cultivation team designed to help people be the best versions of themselves and help companies support them along the way. In her role, Laura helps people build lives that they love through the process of building profitable businesses and robust, growth-filled careers.
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Laura:
Welcome to the Love in Leadership podcast. My name is Laura, and as always, I'm joined by the one and only Michael James McFall. Mike, how are you doing?
Michael James McFall:
Great, Laura. You didn't say I was your favorite podcast.
Laura:
You are my favorite podcast cohost.
Michael James McFall:
Cohost. And only.
Laura:
Yeah. Favorite only, most best.
Michael James McFall:
So you're back, right?
Laura:
I'm back.
Michael James McFall:
You're back.
Laura:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:00:31].
Michael James McFall:
We're timing on all this is a little jacked up, but I still want to have you engage the experience of re-immersion into our organization post baby.
Laura:
Okay. What do you want to know?
Michael James McFall:
What's it like?
Laura:
So I've been doing a lot of comparing it to when I came back from sabbatical. So every five years we do a three-month paid sabbatical, which is magical and wonderful. But the first time I came back, the time I came back from sabbatical, a lot of my world had changed very dramatically while I was gone, which I was a little bit prepped for and a little bit surprised by. And I felt for that return that it took me at least a few months to feel like I had my feet under me as far as what I was supposed to be doing and focusing on. And this time when I came back, it felt so much smoother, which I was so happy for because it could have been trippier because my whole life at home obviously has changed and my perspective on the world has changed and all these things.
And I was worried about coming back this time because I thought maybe I wouldn't care as much. I think I said this on that last podcast, but I was worried that I just, because my whole, I describe it as a gravitational shift towards my child now. The whole world is about her now. And I thought that that might affect my work or my passion for work, or even my brain a little bit, because sleep deprivation is very real, but coming back has actually been super smooth and thankfully not that much had changed, thankfully. And maybe un-thankfully, because there's some things that I thought might've changed by then, but no, it's been super smooth. I'm loving my work. I love what our company's doing right now and what I get to focus on, so everything's really exciting.
Michael James McFall:
Well, I do think your perspective shifts, there's absolutely no doubt about it in relation to work and so on. But I think we learned also from our experiences with you and others during sabbatical about what, I know John and I had many conversations while you were gone about how we really needed to wait until you got back.
Laura:
Yeah. I heard that echo many times. I appreciate.
Michael James McFall:
And I was sitting on my hands twitching for about a month and a half waiting for you to come back so we could start talking about all the stuff that we were interested in pursuing.
Laura:
I appreciate that. Thank you.
Michael James McFall:
So cool. Well, I'm super excited about today.
Laura:
Yeah, me too. It's our finale, our season one finale. We've made it through the end of what I hope is our worst season of podcasting because we're-
Michael James McFall:
Of course, it'll be our worst season.
Laura:
Because we're learning.
Michael James McFall:
It better be our worst season.
Laura:
Before we jump-
Michael James McFall:
It's an interesting perspective though.
Laura:
Yes. It's very strange to hope that it's the worst. Before we jump into that, is there anything on your mind this week? I always want to check on that. Anything going on? Anything special in your world?
Michael James McFall:
Well, no. I mean, not necessarily work related, but life related. And it's all like, man, how different people have different perspectives on the exact same event that's occurring in front of you.
Laura:
Oh, yeah.
Michael James McFall:
And it's got my brain all twisted up and I am working hard to, your truth is not the truth. So what the hell is true? I kind of walk around in my day to day now like, "Gosh, is this just my fantasy I'm making up? I am feeling this way about this thing, but man, is this real? Is this right? Is this..." And so anyway, my brain's kind of all tied up inside of that mess.
Laura:
Wow. That's like giant philosophical crisis.
Michael James McFall:
Kind of existential in a weird way.
Laura:
Wow, wow.
Michael James McFall:
Anyway.
Laura:
I understand. I know I used the phrase sometime that really freaked out someone who was a C-style. So we use a personality test that's called DISC, C-style is very black and white numerical data-driven. And I remember saying something in front of someone who was a C-style that said something like, "Well, nothing's ever right or wrong." And they were like, "That's not true." And I was like, "No, but it's what you were just describing." Nothing is entirely true or entirely false or entirely right or entirely wrong. And technically, probably mathematically, yeah, okay, there are things that are accurate or inaccurate and that sort of thing. But I get what you mean where anytime someone uses an absolute of basically any kind, I'm immediately like, that's not how this works.
Michael James McFall:
Well, I'm reading a book by, I forget his first name, his last name is Kwik, and it's all about optimizing brain performance. And he makes so many amazing points in this book. But one of them has to do with the need for assurity, if that's the right word. But there is no assurity. There's none. I don't care how much data you analyze, you cannot get to 100% certainty. So anyway, so I'm living in that little space right there. I'm picking up some real interesting and cool nuggets from this book about having, it's all about making your brain perform at a higher level, which is kind of a cool thing.
Laura:
That's very cool. And interestingly, this is when I was thinking about having this chat with you, I was like, what's on my mind this week?
Michael James McFall:
Oh, yeah. [inaudible 00:06:29].
Laura:
And the thing on my mind is actually about data because we had a conversation in a management meeting on Tuesday about our company is exploring human data more than we ever have before. We've always had sales data, we've always had point of sale system data and that kind of thing. And we're just in the infant stages of trying to put some of our people data, human data, employee data next to our sales and financial performance data. And there's conversations that go on where someone will be like, "Well, this isn't that great of data." And I'm like, "I know." We have to start somewhere. And that's kind of the point that we're at in this conversation.
And that's been what's on my mind is I'm like, I'm okay that our data isn't perfect. It's telling us something, and that something is more than the nothing that we had before. And so I'm trying to celebrate that. I'm trying to stay focused on that. And also there is no resting on it because it does still need to be improved. And I'm sure there's better ways of getting some of our human data, because some of our human data is literally asking people how they feel. Do you think Biggby Coffee is supporting you in building a life you love? That's a challenging question because it's feelings-based, it all depends on when we ask it, how we ask it, what medium we're asking it through. Is it through an app? Is it through an email? Is it on the POS? And there's good and bad and better and worse to all of those different methods, but this week I'm trying to celebrate the fact that we are doing something. That's all.
Michael James McFall:
Yes. I mean, something is better than nothing.
Laura:
Yes, I think so.
Michael James McFall:
So we're sort of interestingly caught up in the same quagmire in a weird way.
Laura:
Yeah, that's fun mind meld.
Michael James McFall:
The book that I was referring to is Jim Kwik, K-W-I-K, and it's called Limitless: Upgrade Your Brain, Learn Anything Faster, and Unlock Your Exceptional Life, is the book.
Laura:
Very cool. Is that where when I peeked over the other day and you were doing your doodles to memorize your keynote, is that where that method came from?
Michael James McFall:
Yes.
Laura:
I'm sorry if that was dismissive. I don't know what to call it other than doodle.
Michael James McFall:
It was a little dismissive, but that's fine because it's not that interesting. But yes.
Laura:
Will you explain what that is? Because it really is, it's doodles, but it's not like doodles.
Michael James McFall:
Yeah. So in terms of memorization, you tell a story, and you tell a story on nuggets of information throughout whatever you're trying to memorize. And then I take that and actually draw a picture of that story. And whatever art that comes out of it is actually, I think pretty interesting and fascinating.
Laura:
Totally.
Michael James McFall:
And so, yeah, that's what I've been working on is this whole concept of memorization. And what is amazing is in the book, he talks about how your brain is a muscle, and if you use it and you use it appropriately, it gets better and better and better and better. One of the things that we're not doing as much anymore is we aren't having to memorize things because things are now so at our fingertips, and so our brain isn't memorizing like once did, and then therefore memorization is becoming more complicated for people. And so I've been spending two hours, maybe three hours a day memorizing and I am getting better at it, which is cool.
Laura:
That's really cool.
Michael James McFall:
It's been a slow, long process.
Laura:
Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Especially I'm thinking of the years I've presented at BNS, our Biggby Nation Summit, our big annual meeting that we have with our franchiseners every year. And the one year, I can remember almost all of my presentations, maybe not word for word like how I wrote them, but I can tell you the topics, the big highlights, the things I wanted people to walk away with. The one year I can't remember was our virtual year, and it's because I had it up on the screen and I didn't have to memorize it. I didn't have to have it committed to my memory, and people have asked me, or I've asked myself, probably more likely, what did I talk about that year? I have no idea. I have to go find it on my computer. I have no memory of that whole thing. It's so interesting. So yeah, something about virtual life is ruining us. We got to work this muscle up here.
Michael James McFall:
Yeah. Or maybe at the end of the day, we don't need our brains.
Laura:
Maybe. We've got computers, who needs a brain? Well, that's disheartening. Okay. Let's turn things around. Is there anything else on your mind this week before we talk about who we have joining us?
Michael James McFall:
Nope. Nope, nope.
Laura:
I'm so excited because this is a big deal. The person joining us today, his name is Ryo Zsun, and he hails from a magical company that I bet everybody listening has heard of, which is Zappos. And as far as healthy workplace culture goes, they're like the pinnacle, right? Or at least they're one of the OGs of healthy workplace culture and making that a real focus as far as how they find success in the world and focusing on their people so dramatically. I'm so excited to talk to Ryo and find out more than maybe your average person gets to find out about how Zappos does things.
Michael James McFall:
Yeah, I can't wait. It's going to be great.
Laura:
Very cool. All right. Let's jump into it. All right. Ryo, how are you doing today?
Ryo Zsun:
Good morning, and aloha. I'm doing fine. Thank you. It's a gorgeous morning here in Las Vegas. Actually, the weather's been kind of pleasant as of lately.
Laura:
That's good. What does pleasant mean when you live in Las Vegas?
Ryo Zsun:
Well, because we're in the shoulder season going into summer, it's the cooler temperatures and it's warming up a little bit, so it's just been really great. Every time it's like that, I always want to go play in it. So on the weekends with me, I ride my e-scooter around the neighborhood just to enjoy the sunshine.
Laura:
Oh, fun. Very cool. I want to hear from you. Who are you, where are you from and what is it that you do?
Ryo Zsun:
For one, I am Ryo de Janero without the de Janero. I'm a local Islander from the island of Oahu in Hawaii, and I made a journey to the mainland here where somewhere along the way I ended up here at a unique company called Zappos, and I wear many hats in the company, but officially I'm concierge. I'm also the official tour guide where I get to take companies from around the world around the campus and talk about the company culture and customer service. And if anyone else needs me, I'm usually an extra hand if needed, especially with our experience team. We do a lot of engagements here.
Laura:
That's so cool.
Ryo Zsun:
That's three hats that I wear here at Zappos.
Laura:
Do you still hold the title culture maestro?
Ryo Zsun:
Yes. And it's because of my love of music. So when I joined the Tours team officially, I don't get to pick my culture name, the group does. And because I was known for playing my ukulele around the campus, they don me the culture maestro, hence the name I typically use when I speak.
Laura:
Oh, I didn't know that part. It's so exciting.
Ryo Zsun:
That's the origin.
Laura:
Very cool. And I think we are going to have you play the ukulele to take us out today later, so get ready for it. Don't panic.
Ryo Zsun:
Okay. Sounds-
Michael James McFall:
Ryo, when you give tours, how many tours are you giving? Can you give us an idea of what that looks like on a weekly basis?
Ryo Zsun:
Oh, it varies. It depends. Oftentimes, when certain conferences are in town, I usually get a surge of large groups, but then sometimes I had one person yesterday who came in all the way from Brazil and she's been here before, but she wanted to see what Zappos looks like today, and I was very honored. She showed me pictures of when she last visited. So sometimes it could be just one person, sometimes it could be a large group. It just really depends.
Laura:
Does that mean you can just wander in to Zappos HQ and be like, "Hey, can I have a tour?"
Ryo Zsun:
We prefer that they actually sign up for the tours, so you can have a guaranteed spot for them. It would be an un-wow they shut up, and I've already got a full booking of guests and I don't want that to happen.
Laura:
Yeah. Did you just use the phrase it would be an un-wow?
Ryo Zsun:
Yes.
Laura:
That's amazing. Will you explain what that means?
Ryo Zsun:
Well, for me, I always want to make sure that anyone I interact with, I leave with a wow experience and I want that experience even for signing up for a simple tour to be a great one. So if I know that they're coming, I can anticipate their arrival and their visitation, and I'll try to do something really nice like if I find out what company they're from, I'll put a little greeting on our monitors so when they walk in, they just non-slide look around, and then boom, they see their logo on the big sign, then that's a great wow experience. But if they come and we have to turn them away, that would be an un-wow. And that's not what I'm aiming for. But it hasn't happened so far, so knock on wood on that.
Laura:
Good, good, good. I know we're going to talk a lot about Zappos of course, and what you do there and what you see and the culture. But I want to go back just a little bit on, you said you made a trek from Oahu to the mainland and somehow found yourself at Zappos. Can you give us a few more details of that story? What brought you to the mainland? What brought you to Zappos? Just some of the highlights along the way.
Ryo Zsun:
Okay. So let me give you the bullet point Netflix series, if you will. So back in 1999, I actually was feeling a little too confined on Oahu and I wanted to spread my wings a little bit. So I bought a one-way ticket to California to start my adventure. So from California, I eventually ended up in Colorado, Colorado to Texas, Texas all the way to Florida, Florida up the East Coast, Thailand and in Virginia, then Maryland's while working in Washington. DC. Flew back home to Hawaii in 2005. Then in 2008 went to Anchorage, Alaska, stayed there for a couple of years, moved my way to Florida again, and then took a Greyhound all across the US till I ended up in Washington state where I left the last company I had worked for for the last 10 years during all this time and went to Las Vegas. And then I got hired at Zappos as a barista, making Zappacinos for our Zapponians in the Z'Cafe. And I did that for the first year of my job here, and it was Zapptastic.
Laura:
Wow, wow, wow.
Ryo Zsun:
That adventure though, when you go from state to state as I did, and it was just to see the world and kind of experience, you learn a lot about yourself and you learn to conquer a lot of insecurities or fears, and you really have to put yourself out there. And I think that time of maybe the last six or seven years, at that point, I learned to be adaptable and I learned a lot about who I am as a person, that kind of thing. So it was a great adventure and growing experience.
Laura:
Incredible. So cool. And that I think-
Michael James McFall:
Well, there's a common thread here. There's a common thread. We all started as baristas.
Ryo Zsun:
Yes. Yeah.
Laura:
We love that.
Ryo Zsun:
I always tell people the secret to good coffee is use good water. You're welcome.
Laura:
And Ryo, you were in the coffee industry before Zappos, right?
Ryo Zsun:
Correct.
Laura:
Did you say you traveled around and you were working for Starbucks? Yeah.
Ryo Zsun:
Yeah. So I joined Starbucks in 2003. Prior to that, I was with Seattle's Best Coffee.
Laura:
Okay.
Ryo Zsun:
In Hawaii. But I've been doing coffee since probably 18 years old, if you will. And what's really great about my experience in the coffee world is I worked in Waikiki and people from all over the world came to come vacation and they would come to our cafe and I had to learn how to make coffee where they're from to make them happy. So I learned a lot of different recipes over the years. I learned what a flat white is, Café Cubano, coffee Normandy, if you will. So it was a great experience and I was able to take those recipes with me as I continued my track.
Laura:
That's very cool. Do you still have barista skills? Because I don't. I admit that.
Ryo Zsun:
I don't know if I know how to froth milk anymore. It's been years. It's been a good 10 years that I've been out of the cafe world.
Michael James McFall:
Does Zappos still have a cafe that is operational and has baristas in it making coffees?
Ryo Zsun:
Yes. And I always jokingly say this is where I started, but then they hired someone better than me. So we do have a new barista, but it's a wonderful perk to have here so employees can kickstart their day or maybe they need pick me up in the afternoon, but it's also connection place too. So there are tables and a lounge, et cetera. We even have a rooftop area that's an expansion of the cafe where people could actually take their beverages outside and work in the sun if they'd like. Maybe not during triple digit heat, but that's not [inaudible 00:19:27].
Laura:
They come in very, very red from the outside on that day. Can you talk more about some of the Zappos campus cool things that you've got going there? I mean, I've heard story. I haven't actually gotten to do the tour yet. Some of our other Biggby friends have, but tell us more about Zappos campus.
Ryo Zsun:
I think when a visitor comes, and I'm just going to go from the outside looking in, I think one of the wonderful features that they'll enjoy is actually the lobby experience. We've got so much going on, it's not your typical corporate office setting. We actually have a little party store so people can buy like balloon bouquets or maybe get gift wrapping done. We've also got a little bodega where they can get their energy drinks, they meaning guests and visitors. We also have swag that's available. And then we also have a little pool table. There's a table tennis area. We've got a ball pit that can double as a conference room if you want to hold a meeting in there. I suggest though that you don't put anything, take everything out of your pockets. Yeah, I found wallets, earbuds, IDs, et cetera. So not the best place to lose anything. But yeah, it's a lot of fun.
And then we've got a little engagement area where we can play video games. We also have karaoke, and there's a piano also located in the lobby. So if anyone's musically inclined or just want to jump and play a nice tune, they're welcome to do that. So that's just the beginning part of the journey. And then we also have a place called the Zurassic Park, where a lot of the decor is reminiscent of the actual dinosaur movie.
Laura:
Oh my gosh.
Ryo Zsun:
That's the reaction we get. People are just looking at these dinosaurs like, "What? Is that a Velociraptor? Is this a T-Rex?" And yes, they are. And I always jokingly say, "I hope you're not allergic to dinosaurs. If you are, I do have an EpiPen." I'm kidding.
Laura:
Oh my God.
Ryo Zsun:
The cafe is also a very unique feature that's a good place for people to connect. And there's actually a little game room where you could play foosball, a little basketball game in there. There's miniature golf in the rooftop area. We also have a nap room that was actually created by a TV show featured on the Animal Planet network, and they recreated our nap room as a big aquarium. And there's little cubby holes on the aquarium where inside it resides a reclining massage chair, if you will. That way employees can actually take a little power nap if they're not feeling 100%, or maybe just want to relax and recline in the massage chair but watch the fishes swim around them, and it's actually called Sleeping with the Fishes and homage to when the mobsters used to run Las Vegas. So those are some of the unique features that we have here.
Laura:
Do employees actually use this stuff or is it how do employees engage with all of the fun? Or does it become just so normal for them that they sort of forget about it?
Ryo Zsun:
I believe it becomes so normal because it's just an usual feature for them to see on the daily, so to speak. So when something new happens, I don't think it shocks us as much anymore as like, oh, of course we have a petting zoo here because we're Zappos.
Laura:
Of course. Why not?
Ryo Zsun:
And we did have one yesterday. We actually had a little pony. We had two baby goats and some bunny rabbits for an event yesterday. So that was [inaudible 00:22:42].
Laura:
Perfect. Who's in charge of that stuff? Who's in charge of, I think I'm going to bring in a petting zoo day, or I think it's time that we add a nap room or what team does that?
Ryo Zsun:
There's really no one in charge. Anyone can create an event. However, we do have a specific team to help put those events together, the logistics of it, if you need tables, if you need any type of setup happening, sound or light, if they're using our theater. Oh, I should have mentioned that. We have a theater as well.
Laura:
Of course. Why not?
Ryo Zsun:
So if any department in our company wants to host a type of event, maybe it's for a business partner, maybe it's for their team, et cetera, we do have a team that's designed to be helpful and instrumental in setting all that up.
Laura:
Wow, very cool.
Ryo Zsun:
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Laura:
That's wild.
Ryo Zsun:
And you're speaking our language. Wow. That's kind of our thing.
Laura:
That's the goal, isn't it? Will you talk about what you do? You said you're the concierge now or a concierge. Is there a team?
Ryo Zsun:
It's a small but mighty team, but there's two of us who actually create and watch over the lobby experience making sure that our business partners get to their proper conference room where they're meeting whoever their business partner here at the company is. We also have visitors to our guests. We could check them in so they could receive a security badge to enter our campus. Anyone, any visitors who come who are business partners outside of that realm, we want to make sure that they get to the right connection, the right person, et cetera. And also making sure that everything in the lobby is in place. So it's an enjoyable experience for anyone who comes and just hangs out. There's lounging areas, oftentimes guests will sit at our tables. It's just a really a fun thing to do. And what I like about what I do is I get to do these things and it's never the same. It's always keeping me on my toes, and I really enjoy that. And it's great to have coworkers you enjoy because their energy is just as infectious, if you will.
Laura:
Totally.
Michael James McFall:
One of the things that I love about this and this conversation and then wanting to amplify what's happening at Zappos is that I want people to know that there are places in the world and that it's not necessarily uncommon, uncommon to have workplaces be enjoyable and to treat each other well. And this theme of happiness, I'm pretty enthralled with it in the workplace. I guess one question I have is the company is quite successful. There's just no doubt about that. And is there any pressure to correlate the culture with the financial performance of the business? Does that ever happen? And if so, how does it happen? And then what do those answers look like?
Ryo Zsun:
Without getting into specifics, because I can't discuss numbers or whatnot, but the way I always tell other people that ask me a similar question like that is when you work in an environment where people are just passionate about what they do, the engagement is increased. And if engagement is increased, the byproduct of that is productivity, higher productivity, and that drives the bottom line for our company. And I think that's really a very important part and why we focus so much on making sure that the employee experience is a wow experience. So everyone else can increase their productivity and their teams and whatnot and drive the success of the organization. And I think that's important. I hope that answers that question for you.
Michael James McFall:
Yeah, I love it. I'm on a quest to find, everybody loves data. I don't know if you know that, but everybody wants data.
Ryo Zsun:
Yes, of course.
Michael James McFall:
And I'm on a quest to find the data that backs up that when you unlock people, I call it unlocking people's inner super power when they reach like that and productivity soars. And I'm on a quest to find the data that correlates that. And I was hoping you were going to say, "Yeah, I've got it right here for you, Mike. Here's the-"
Ryo Zsun:
Yeah, unfortunately I don't have hard numbers to give you, but I can tell you that the company's still doing well and we're still happy with what we're doing as well.
Laura:
Yeah, I bet.
Michael James McFall:
Great.
Laura:
On that line of thinking, so there's really fun things at Zappos HQ, there's nap rooms, Zurassic Park, all of those things. I think it's magical. Is there things on maybe the more practical side that Zappos tries to do specifically to take care of its employees as, I don't know, everything sounds less exciting, but professional development initiatives and supporting people in their actual role? And how does that work? What do you guys focus on in that realm?
Ryo Zsun:
And I was actually a recipient of utilizing this tool that we have, but we have our own internal learning pipeline known as Zappos University, and that is our learning and development for any employees who want to maybe gain extra insights into maybe any part of the company or maybe they want to learn how to do Excel formulas or maybe want someone.
So when I ended up moving from the cafe in my journey in the beginning that I went into the call center, and during my time in the call center, I knew that we had given tours and I had asked the team, "Hey, what would I need to learn to be able to give tours and host tours for our guests?" So they sent me to some classes. I took public speaking one and two, I joined Zappos chapter of Toastmasters to develop my speaking abilities as well. Then I also did presentations there. We have a class called Pimp my PowerPoint, which was cool. I got to learn how to do PowerPoints and do, and I started doing presentations for the company in the early days of my journey. And so it was very easy to develop, but I'm not the only one who benefited from all this. We allow all the employees to be able to have access to these different channels that they can learn different skills that will help their growth and journey inside our company internally as well.
Laura:
That's very cool.
Ryo Zsun:
And some people actually are very skilled and certified in certain areas. So we have a fitness center as well on the campus. And one of my coworkers, she is a certified yoga instructor and been doing it for years. So she actually gets to teach classes to other Zapponians on site or virtually as well, and I think that's kind of admirable.
Laura:
So cool.
Ryo Zsun:
These are two examples of many, many examples that I can share with you, but I hope that answers your question.
Laura:
Totally. So we've heard your journey, barista to call center to tour guide to concierge. How many different types of pathways are there? Because I think when I've heard you do presentations and that kind of thing about Zappos, you talk a lot about the call center and how Zappos is really a customer service company more than a shoe sale company and that kind of thing.
Ryo Zsun:
Our call center is definitely the pulse of our company. They are in the spotlight. Yes.
Laura:
Are most pathways in or through the call center? Where else can people go? Is there other employment opportunities?
Ryo Zsun:
Some other examples, I've seen people who started in the call center who now work in HR or who moved on to tech or who moved into finance. My story is everyone's story pretty much. I've seen people start in one area and move into other areas of the company, and it's always exciting to watch and witness. When I meet new employees in the lobby and I know they're here for the first day of work or whatnot, I oftentimes will mention, I can't wait to see you in five years and see where you're at. Because it's just very, it's inspiring to know that you don't have to just be in this one place where you can actually grow and flourish inside this unique culture. And I think that's a beautiful thing that we have here. And over the last 11 years that I've been here, it's been great to witness a lot of these journeys from other Zapponians.
Laura:
So cool.
Michael James McFall:
Yeah, I love all that. Does the culture of happiness, does that mean it's stress-free?
Ryo Zsun:
I think so. I've never been felt that I was over the edge on something. And not only that, I think what's really cool if I'm not feeling 100%, the energy that we have here is quite contagious. So if I'm not feeling 100%, just being around our fellow Zapponians will bring me back to where I should be or the energy I could be at, and that's always a good thing. So anticipating coming to work, knowing that I'm going to be surrounded by people I'm familiar with and can be myself with, I think that's truly important.
Laura:
Do you guys have any, I don't know how many meetings you have or I guess team gatherings. Is there any specific culture-boosting practices that you guys use at the beginning of a meeting or at the end of a meeting? Any sort of traditions that you guys work into a meeting space or gathering space?
Ryo Zsun:
I can't speak for other teams, but for the team that I'm associated with, we do have meetings that are scheduled and we open it with just talking about how our weekend was just to get back in, because we usually started off beginning of the week. And we'll just individually share a little bit what we did over the weekend just to get that out and just connect and get to know more about each other, and then we'll go straight into the business aspect after that. But I like hearing what people, because there are some people who are not here in Las Vegas, and they actually will join the meeting remotely, and so I get to hear what they're doing in their town or where they're from, and it's always good news. Good stuff to hear. Yeah. My life is usually boring because I just go to work and go home. So my portion of it's usually just a bullet point. Yeah, I went shopping, watched a movie.
Laura:
Oh my gosh. Went for an e-scooter ride, right?
Ryo Zsun:
Yeah, I went for an e-scooter ride. It doesn't sound so exciting when I say it like that, but-
Laura:
That's okay. You mentioned that you're on a maybe bigger team than just the two of you, because at one point you said it's a team of two that are the concierges.
Ryo Zsun:
Concierges are [inaudible 00:33:23] 2.
Laura:
What team are you is a team associated with?
Ryo Zsun:
So the experience team is what they're known for. They would be the ones that any of the departments in the company would reach out to to help with any type of events and the logistics of it, sound and lighting, et cetera. So we're an extension of that team. Whenever they need extra help, I'm right there for them. And they put on some really good events. They do.
Laura:
Awesome. So when you're talking about Zappos, it sounds a little bit utopian, sounds like a little perfect.
Michael James McFall:
I think Willy Wonka.
Laura:
You don't have to talk about challenges of the company, but what sort of challenges do you run into that you have to problem-solve through?
Ryo Zsun:
I think because of the way we operate here in the company, sometimes things happen a little fast, if you will. So sometimes I'm not always aware of what changes are happening with different departments, that type of thing. So I think that's commonality that we have with other companies. I think communication could be a little bit better in certain aspects, if you will.
Laura:
Everybody I'm sure could use a little help on that.
Ryo Zsun:
Sometimes I'll walk in and I'll say, "Oh, okay. Well, that's cool." But we do try our best to make sure that everyone's abreast of what's going on or any activities or whatnot. So we do a daily newsletter that gets sent to the entire company with little bullet points of who's celebrating what anniversary, who's doing birthdays, celebrating birthdays if there's a special event on the horizon. And so I do read those newsletters. In fact, the first thing I do to start my day is I'll send birthdays and anniversary emails out to those who are celebrating a special day.
Laura:
Cool.
Michael James McFall:
Ryo, when you go to speak in front of a group, you have a particular message you want to get across as a representative of Zappos. Can you give us the bullet points on that? What is it that is important to you that other people take away from when you have a moment with them speaking in front of them as a keynote or various other opportunities you have?
Ryo Zsun:
My message is just sharing the Zappos story and how this young startup company and their commitment to their values can create a strong company culture that drains great customer service experiences, but also lead to brand strength. And that's something that's been the forefront of our culture here at Zappos is making sure our commitment level, because a lot of companies do have great values or mission statements, but oftentimes the commitment level's not always there. And I think that's why a lot of companies suffer from having not such a great company culture, and I like to share that message because I think we've really instilled that here at Zappos.
Michael James McFall:
Can you share with me a time when the culture started to maybe wander away from the culture that you wanted or that the early days represented? And then how did you bring that back or how does the organization deal with that? We at times have, we will bring in a new leader from the outside world that has a different take or a different look. And so how does Zappos deal with when the culture starts to go to a place that isn't maybe where it's always been?
Ryo Zsun:
I think when there's extreme changes that happens in our organization, the first thing that we need to do is have the conversation and get feedback from our Zapponians. And I think that's really crucial and very important. That way we can call out what it is that is causing the little mar or blister if you want to call it like that, and then we go from there and get that all mended back together. I hope that helps, because it's an example of even in the beginning days of the Zappos story where Tony Hsieh did not want what happened at his former company where it was a very disconnected culture and he didn't want that to happen to Zappos in its early stages. So he knew he had to start the conversations to capture the essence of what the culture was and what the driving principles would be eventually ending up to be our core values. And I think from that example, we continuously do that today.
Laura:
How does that look today? I've read Delivering Happiness, it's a fabulous book. And so I can imagine what it looked like when Zappos was a bit smaller and those conversations happened, but what does it look like today with, I mean Zappos is huge, actually don't know how many employees you have, but a lot. And when you say we go talk to people or we listen to people, is that through surveys? Is it actually in-person meetings? What does that look like?
Ryo Zsun:
It's a combination. So we'll use surveys as well because we want to get them the voice of the employee, but we also have all-hands meetings, which happen every quarter, so about three to four times a year. And this is actually where we shut down the entire company so we can discuss all these things, updates, financials, et cetera. And more importantly though, it's a really good way to get everybody on the same page and moving in the same direction and looking at the focuses for the next steps into the next quarter. And I think that's a really integral important part of what we do as an organization. And for me, they're always inspiring and this is where I get to learn some new details about different departments or whatnot. Sometimes we'll do town hall meetings if it's department specific, so any department can come and actually share a little update on what their projects are, what new innovations they're working on, and that's another way to stay abreast on what's the top of going on in the organization at different elements or parts of it, if you will.
Laura:
Did you say that-
Ryo Zsun:
You guys are asking some really good questions. I was like, okay, go ahead.
Laura:
I mean, this is what we love. You are right up our alley as far as what we're trying to explore and what we're trying to get the stories out there in the world on what people are doing. Did you mention that they go over financials in those all-staff meetings? You guys do open book financials?
Ryo Zsun:
Yes, but it's restricted only to employees because we are under the umbrella. Yeah, we're publicly traded with Amazon.
Laura:
Yeah. Very cool. Will you talk a little bit about, so we do a coaching program as part of Biggby Coffee, and we were inspired by Zappos has a coaching program, but we don't know a lot of the details about how that works. Will you tell me how it works or is that a secret special program?
Ryo Zsun:
Are you referring to our life coach?
Laura:
Probably.
Michael James McFall:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ryo Zsun:
Okay. So we do have a life coach program. We've actually had it for a long time in our history. Basically, they're instrumental in helping Zapponians move forward with things that they're dealing with. Maybe that someone's buying a house for the first time or maybe they're doing a career change, et cetera. Our life coach is there to be instrumental in helping process and go through all those things. Sometimes they do group sessions if it's related to a certain topic or a certain agenda, that kind of thing. So it varies. The programs always varies. And they're also part of the learning development team Zappos U. So they're instrumental with the teachings through there, that channel.
Laura:
Do they still sit? We heard rumor, I think that they sit in a glass room in the middle of a floor. Is that true?
Ryo Zsun:
At one point they did, yes. But of course we've evolved from the old styles of how we used to be in the early days of Zappos. One thing that hasn't changed though is our C-level suite, they actually sit in the call center and not in an office. They find inspiration being around other Zapponians.
Laura:
Oh, I love that.
Ryo Zsun:
And that's something that Tony had started years ago and we still continue that today.
Laura:
That's very cool.
Michael James McFall:
Is that open floor plan or do they have-
Ryo Zsun:
It is an open floor plan, so I easily can just walk into the area and say hi to any of them and have a conversation as well as anyone else, I should mention. I did talk to one, I'm sorry. I do remember talking to a business leader who tried to do that, but he felt he was so inundated. But they do have their schedules and if they do need privacy, we do have conference rooms, so I just want to make that clear as well. So if they do need that private space, it's available to them.
Laura:
That's cool. How do you support, I want to talk about the call center being the heart of your company because it is, and I know so much of what you talk about is the customer service side of things. How do you guys specifically take care of those employees? Because I know being on the receiving end of those call center, phone calls can sometimes be a little dicey, people could be a little angry, people could maybe not be the kindest in those moments. How do you make sure that the employees are being taken care of on that side of it, like the emotional side?
Ryo Zsun:
That's a really good question, and thank you for asking. They do have a smaller team to engage just the call center folks on the daily, so they're called the engagement and appreciation team. So they'll do exactly those two things that do a lot of trivia games on Slack channels. They'll even have in-house gatherings like, it was the National Waffle Day. So they invited everyone to come into the call center to have waffles and a bunch of goodies. They constantly are always thinking of that. They also decorate the areas for the different seasons, whatnot. They do a lot of engaging and fun things, and they're so kind enough to keep inviting me to come, "Hey, come check out our... We're doing a potluck, come make a plate or what." So they do make sure to make sure that the employees in the call center world are taken care of.
Laura:
Do you still pull a shift every once in a while on the call center lines? Is that a thing you do?
Ryo Zsun:
I'll be honest, I love the call center. I love my time in the call center. So what you may not know is everyone who gets hired at Zappos, and this is pre-pandemic, mind you, actually the policy was during the holiday season, everyone outside the call center would actually have to spend 10 hours of their regular work hours to be on the phones with our customers, which is great. Because then it just brings us back to our roots, which is customer service in itself.
Now, in this new world, we do what's called side-by-side. So I did mine in November where I actually got to sit with a call center rep and listen in on the phone call and actually hear all the details, how that person wowed, and we get to discuss the conversations that they had, et cetera. So I really love going back to the call center. I spent, this is called holiday help by the way, so November, December, January, and I was made fun of or teased if you will, because I was only supposed to do 10 hours, but I think one year I did 90 hours on the phone. Yeah. So much I love our customers. And I remember the following year someone challenged me and goes, "I'm going to break your record." I wasn't trying to have a contest. I just like being on the phones.
Laura:
What a happy competition though. That's so fun.
Michael James McFall:
Ryo, if you could paint a picture for yourself in five years, what does that look like?
Ryo Zsun:
Oh, that's a good question. I don't know if I ever think that far ahead for myself. I know I do want to see more of the world, so maybe just me walking on the planet in some unique location. Because it's such a big planet, I just want to see so much of it. So I try to get in as much traveling as I can. So that's what I would like to do if we're looking far ahead in the future.
Laura:
Yeah. What's next on the travel bucket?
Michael James McFall:
You should join Bob and Michelle.
Laura:
Yeah.
Ryo Zsun:
What was that?
Michael James McFall:
Is that what you were going to say, Laura?
Laura:
No, but I was going to get there after I asked what was next on the bucket list.
Ryo Zsun:
What did you say, Mike?
Michael James McFall:
I was saying you should sign up to go on a farm trip with Bob and Michelle. Bob Fish, our other co-CEO is on a quest to buy coffee and farm direct relationships around the world and people can sign up to go on these trips, and I haven't been on one yet, but they are, from what I'm told, they are life-changing and amazing.
Ryo Zsun:
I remember learning about the background of a lot of those smaller farms because they want to get their coffee out there, and I think that's amazing. I've seen and read stories in regards to single origin areas where it's a small farmer, but they want to join the world market. So I think that's incredible. And Laura, again what you were saying?
Laura:
I was asking what was next on the bucket list, because I was going to see if we had a connection to one of the next bucket list places.
Ryo Zsun:
I actually already have my bucket list place for the next destination, and I'm hoping it'll be Japan and Australia.
Laura:
Very cool.
Ryo Zsun:
Yeah. Last year I went to Europe, so I went to Amsterdam, Scotland and Dublin. That was fun.
Laura:
Amazing. How do you-
Ryo Zsun:
Scotland was my favorite.
Laura:
How do you prefer to travel? Are you a solo traveler, group?
Ryo Zsun:
I am. I'm a lone ranger when I go traveling. And there's a reason why I think it's my time spending in the mainland where I had traveled all that time, but looking back and reflection when I used to travel with friends or family, always felt like I was on their agenda or their schedule. So I am the kind of person, I just like to throw myself into a strange place and just kind of soak it all in, just naturally interact with whoever, that type of thing. So that's what I did went to Europe. I stayed on a houseboat in Amsterdam on the water.
Laura:
That's very cool.
Ryo Zsun:
How cool is that?
Laura:
That's very cool.
Ryo Zsun:
And I like talking to strangers. I may not speak the language sometimes, but hello, goodbye, it usually works. So just enough.
Laura:
Very good. Do you greet people when you're in places like Amsterdam still with aloha? Because I think that is awesome.
Ryo Zsun:
Yeah. It's just natural for me to say it now. So I even do my emails with Aloha, so it's kind of my thing.
Laura:
I love it. Mike, I'm going to ask my last question unless you've got anything.
Michael James McFall:
Please.
Laura:
So Ryo, if you are talking to someone at another company who works for another company and they want to just get inches closer to the coolness of the culture at Zappos, what do you tell them? What advice do you have for people for improving their culture, improving their workplace culture?
Ryo Zsun:
I always ask them to remember to ask these two questions, who are we and why do we do what we do? Because that, I believe will bring on more insights on their industry and their culture and their values and their missions and where it should be in place. Because it doesn't have to be our culture is our culture, our characteristics are our core values, whereas your characteristics for your company will be your values and your mission statement. So if you just remember those two questions, then it will take you back to your purpose. And I think that's truly important. So it doesn't matter what industry you're in, I think when you have those two guidelines, it'll put you back to where you should be. Hopefully.
Michael James McFall:
I like that.
Laura:
[inaudible 00:48:56]. Ryo, will you bring us home with a little bit of culture maestro ukulele magic?
Michael James McFall:
Thank you.
Laura:
Yay.
Michael James McFall:
Beautiful.
Ryo Zsun:
I'm not going to go professional anytime soon, but I'm glad you enjoyed that.
Laura:
I love it. I want that to be our new theme song for our podcast. Ryo, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your heart, sharing your clear passion for what you do for your company.
Ryo Zsun:
Thank you.
Laura:
Giving us a little bit of insight into what you do every day. It's been super magical.
Ryo Zsun:
Thanks for thinking of us here at Zappos. I'm very humbled and honored that you invited me to be on your show. And Michael's great meeting you, Sharon as well and Ashley, thank you so much for the correspondence. You guys have all been great. And I love the Biggby family. You guys have been here twice at our company and hopefully we'll see you guys again. Maybe you'll come this time.
Laura:
I'm going to make it. I was very jealous last time.
Michael James McFall:
Me too. Ryo, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it. Well, I got to say that was amazing. I really enjoyed, I enjoyed the whole thing. There were some moments that I thought were really important and one of those was that the listener won't hear is when he asked us to cut some things out because he didn't feel like he had the appropriate understanding of that part of Zappos and he didn't want to misrepresent it in any way. And I was like, God, that's so refreshing and responsible for somebody to say, "Yeah..." So anyway, I really thought that that was a cool part of it. Again, and no one will hear that because we will edit it out, but what was up for you? What are some of the things that you enjoyed?
Laura:
Something that always strikes me with Ryo in particular, because I've engaged with him a couple of times we've had him present at Biggby Nation Summit before, is this, I always associate a strength of language with a strength of culture. And Ryo's language is so consistent, intentional, the wow, the un-wow. I had never heard the un-wow thing before that brought me joy. The Zapponians, the Zurassic Park, all of the language stuff. I just think language is such a key part of culture. It's why I end up talking about it so often. I think it's a really important piece of building a strong culture and it's like the biggest sign to me that a culture is super strong. And he just showed that not just with his own passion and love of the culture, but his use of the language was really sticking out to me the whole time.
Michael James McFall:
Yeah, I thought that was great. I thought that talking about the C-suite and how they are part of the call center and that they aren't tucked away where nobody can get to them, that they are right there for anybody to approach. You hear about that in the world and it seems like such a good idea, but you don't hear of it actually happening very often, and I believe that it actually happens there.
Laura:
I think so too.
Michael James McFall:
I think that's really cool.
Laura:
Well, especially because he was like, they don't have offices. They can get privacy if they need to in one of the conference rooms, but it's not like they're visiting.
Michael James McFall:
Just like anybody else.
Laura:
Yeah, exactly. That's so cool.
Michael James McFall:
Yeah.
Laura:
So I thought that was amazing. I feel very inspired by talking to Ryo. I think there's just really cool things going on at Zappos that we can learn from.
Michael James McFall:
One other thing that I took away from it was the question around, well, when it goes sideways, what do you do? And he's like, "It's real simple. You talk about it."
Laura:
You talk to people. Yeah.
Michael James McFall:
And you raise your hand and you say, and this is that piece of culture that I worry that we're misfiring on internally. And it's that people feel safe enough to raise their hand and say, "Hey, y'all, do you realize this little thing that we're doing here isn't really living up to what I think the cultural values are? And I think we maybe need to have a conversation about that."
Laura:
Yeah. And doing something more like, that's why I wanted to know if they do just surveys or in-person or actually conversations about it, because I often think if someone's filling something out that's a critique of the company in a survey, it is a cry for help. I think if they don't care, they don't put it in the survey. And so if someone that cares is going to put it in the survey and they're going to wish that someone would reach out to talk to them more about it and find out more about what their actual lived experience is. So I think that's really cool that they take the time to do both because I mean, we're talking about 100 employees in our company. I meant to ask him how many, but I think they have tens of thousands. There's like a lot.
Michael James McFall:
I don't know.
Laura:
At least thousands.
Michael James McFall:
Yeah, I would say thousands. I mean, I don't know. We could probably look that up somehow, but yes. But to me, the culture needs to be owned by everyone. And everyone in the organization needs to have the ability and opportunity to raise their hand and say, this isn't working for me. And that's what I heard from him. And maybe I'm just looking through my own lens, but that's what I heard from him is that when things go sideways, we expect people, we want people to communicate and talk about what's not working.
Laura:
Right. Ashley, send it through. Thank you, Ash. I was clearly off on my tens of thousands, but it's 1,677 employees. So either way, it's a lot more to manage than our 100 that we have at the Biggby Home Office.
Michael James McFall:
But I think the stuff that you put in place at 10 work is supposed to be working when you're at 100. And then the stuff that you have in place when you're 100 pieces of that should be working when you're at 1,600 and so on and so forth.
Laura:
As long as you're committed to it. That was the other thing I loved that he talked about was his, he's like, "You can't just say stuff. You actually have to show your commitment to it, your commitment to your core values, your commitment to your purpose." Oh, that was good. And it showed.
Michael James McFall:
Yes. Wonderful.
Laura:
All right. Okay. We're going to wrap us up. That's season one. We hopefully did the worst ever and we'll do better next season and we can't wait to bring back more episodes. We'll start recording those just as soon as we can get people on the calendar, which we're working on right this minute. So Mike, love you lots.
Michael James McFall:
Love you too, Laura.
Laura:
And dear listener, to make sure that you don't miss an episode of Love in Leadership, make sure to hit that follow button wherever you find podcasts. While you're there, do us a solid and leave us a rating or review. To follow along with Mike and I as we explore the world, follow us on our social channels at Life You Love Lab and at Mike J. McFall. If you have an idea for a guest you think we should connect with, please email LifeLab@Biggby.com And to learn more about Biggby Coffee's purpose of supporting you in building a life you love, check out B-I-G-G-B-Y.com. We love you for who you are and we'll see you next time. Okay. Love you. Bye.